D&D 5E (2024) Tier Rating Subclasses The Bard.

[Belen]

They didn't. They just haven't remade it yet. You can use the 5.0 one with the 5.5 bard with a little fussing.

THIS is why they resisted the 5.5 moniker for as long as they did.

Sure, but we just had a thread where many people said they do not allow 5.0 stuff in their 5.5 games because the options are weaker. This is what happens with power creep between "revisions."

 

[Remathilis]

Sure, but we just had a thread where many people said they do not allow 5.0 stuff in their 5.5 games because the options are weaker. This is what happens with power creep between "revisions."

And I feel that misses the point of the 5.5 revision. Just because some options are weaker doesn't make them bad. Not everything needs to be S tier or bust. If you're character concept involves a C tier or low B tier option, it should be available, especially since so far we only have about a dozen additional subclasses available at the moment (counting the upcoming Arcana book). Hell, several classes have yet to get a fifth one yet! I especially don't see it as problem with the bard, whose subclass structure did not change (compared to sorcerer, where playing a sub without bonus spells is a giant nerf).

 

[Zardnaar]

Thanks to WotC not fixing the subclass progression (maybe 6e) I consider all features above level 12 irrelevant. Unfortunately, that means most subclasses only have one or two features that PCs will get to see, and those have to carry the theme though.

Yeah I generally treat lvl 10 or 11 as the actual capstone.

 

[Zardnaar]

And I feel that misses the point of the 5.5 revision. Just because some options are weaker doesn't make them bad. Not everything needs to be S tier or bust. If you're character concept involves a C tier or low B tier option, it should be available, especially since so far we only have about a dozen additional subclasses available at the moment (counting the upcoming Arcana book). Hell, several classes have yet to get a fifth one yet! I especially don't see it as problem with the bard, whose subclass structure did not change (compared to sorcerer, where playing a sub without bonus spells is a giant nerf).

I have seen players get frustrated because there class doesn't function as advertised.

Assassin in 5.5. Same player ran a 5.0 monk to levrl 8ish before he converted to 5.5.

Generally a lot of things are fine if you use the 5.5 base class and 5.0 subtype.

 

[Zardnaar]

They didn't. They just haven't remade it yet. You can use the 5.0 one with the 5.5 bard with a little fussing.

THIS is why they resisted the 5.5 moniker for as long as they did.

It was going to happen regardless of label.

They were deliberately over selling backwards compatibility part. Sure it works if you squint but the power creep is very real.

Obvious as well. Its not like they would nerf everything.

 

[DragonLancer]

I have two campaigns in my world running parallel at the moment. Different players but there is a level 15 Lore Bard in both groups.

In the sunday night group there is a Human lore bard, who has focused everything into their charisma based role-play skills. At this point if I call for him to persuade or bluff, his rolls are 30+. Support spells but basically a non-combatant face of the party.

In the Tuesday night group there is a They/Them Sentinel (Warforged reskinned) lore bard who is very knowledge focused. Between them and the party's Transmuter wizard they know almost everything, also rolling 30+ on those skills. Focuses on lore based spells and party support with some combat control (Cloud of Daggers and Conjure Celestial from an item).

No one in either of my groups looks at the other bard subclasses as being any good. The consensus is Lore is the best one. I'll be surprised if anyone plays a different subclass in future.

 

[Zardnaar]

I have two campaigns in my world running parallel at the moment. Different players but there is a level 15 Lore Bard in both groups.

In the sunday night group there is a Human lore bard, who has focused everything into their charisma based role-play skills. At this point if I call for him to persuade or bluff, his rolls are 30+. Support spells but basically a non-combatant face of the party.

In the Tuesday night group there is a They/Them Sentinel (Warforged reskinned) lore bard who is very knowledge focused. Between them and the party's Transmuter wizard they know almost everything, also rolling 30+ on those skills. Focuses on lore based spells and party support with some combat control (Cloud of Daggers and Conjure Celestial from an item).

No one in either of my groups looks at the other bard subclasses as being any good. The consensus is Lore is the best one. I'll be surprised if anyone plays a different subclass in future.

Heh yeah theyre great at that.

I've got a knowledge cleric going similar checks lvl 8 in theor thing. Often with buffing.

 

[Remathilis]

It was going to happen regardless of label.

They were deliberately over selling backwards compatibility part. Sure it works if you squint but the power creep is very real.

Obvious as well. Its not like they would nerf everything.

I have a eloquence bard in my 5.5 that is working just fine right now. And I think that is part of the issue with blanket statements. Sure, the storm sorcerer is ass compared to the 5.5 sorcerer subclasses, but the twilight cleric didn't become outclassed by any 5.5 cleric domain (even stripping the weapon and armor profs from the domain).

As a rule of thumb, I find anything post Tasha (Tasha, Spelljammer, Planescape, MotM, Strixhaven, Dragonlance, Bigby and Fizban) "good enough" to run in 5.5 without major changes needed, while pre Tasha stuff (Xanathar's, Wildmount, Ravnica, Theros) may need a lot more work. (SCAG, Rising from the Last War, Van Richten's Guide, Tome of Foes and Volo already have been replaced with products with updated mechanics). That's still more stuff than not. So outside of Xanathar's having weaker options and the few settings needing updates, I don't see a pressing need to ban 5.0 from the table.

Seriously, D&D doesn't need to be solved with strict meta builds and tier lists like it's a dangerous MMO. You will do just fine adding college of swords to a 5.5 bard...

 

[Tigris]

I have two campaigns in my world running parallel at the moment. Different players but there is a level 15 Lore Bard in both groups.

In the sunday night group there is a Human lore bard, who has focused everything into their charisma based role-play skills. At this point if I call for him to persuade or bluff, his rolls are 30+. Support spells but basically a non-combatant face of the party.

In the Tuesday night group there is a They/Them Sentinel (Warforged reskinned) lore bard who is very knowledge focused. Between them and the party's Transmuter wizard they know almost everything, also rolling 30+ on those skills. Focuses on lore based spells and party support with some combat control (Cloud of Daggers and Conjure Celestial from an item).

No one in either of my groups looks at the other bard subclasses as being any good. The consensus is Lore is the best one. I'll be surprised if anyone plays a different subclass in future.

Which 2 spells did they pick for their level 6 feature? What spells make them so strong in their oppinion?

I ask because for me Lore bard really does not sound too interesting, especially when you reach level 10+ since the level 6 feature becomes a bit redundant with 2024 bard.

 

[Zardnaar]

I have a eloquence bard in my 5.5 that is working just fine right now. And I think that is part of the issue with blanket statements. Sure, the storm sorcerer is ass compared to the 5.5 sorcerer subclasses, but the twilight cleric didn't become outclassed by any 5.5 cleric domain (even stripping the weapon and armor profs from the domain).

As a rule of thumb, I find anything post Tasha (Tasha, Spelljammer, Planescape, MotM, Strixhaven, Dragonlance, Bigby and Fizban) "good enough" to run in 5.5 without major changes needed, while pre Tasha stuff (Xanathar's, Wildmount, Ravnica, Theros) may need a lot more work. (SCAG, Rising from the Last War, Van Richten's Guide, Tome of Foes and Volo already have been replaced with products with updated mechanics). That's still more stuff than not. So outside of Xanathar's having weaker options and the few settings needing updates, I don't see a pressing need to ban 5.0 from the table.

Seriously, D&D doesn't need to be solved with strict meta builds and tier lists like it's a dangerous MMO. You will do just fine adding college of swords to a 5.5 bard...

Eloquent bard was tuned very high in 5.0. It was generally regarded as S tier. Over glamour which is the new S tier one.

If youre using it on top of the 5.5 base class youre good.

Its the bard equivalent of a twilight cleric.