Tripping while wielding weapons

[youspoonybard]

Can you make a trip attack while wielding weapons that you can't trip with?

In particular, a player of mine is combining Dervish levels (dual-scimitar wielding) with Elusive Target (Cause Overreach) and Improved Trip. I don't mind it, but can you make the unarmed trip attack if you're dual wielding?

 

[Camarath]

It is my opinion that you can make an unarmed trip attack while your hands are full but others may dissagree and I do not believe there is a definitive rule on this question.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I agree with Camarath on this. You can make an unarmed strike when your hands are full. Also, I would actually imagine it to be easier rather than harder to trip a foe when you've got a shield than when you don't since the shield provides a lot of protection when closing as well as a very well protected appendage to use for shoving someone over. (Not that trip is simply shoving someone over--generally you'll hook a foot, ankle or leg behind the person's exposed leg before pushing against their upper torso but I think a shield or a wepon wielding arm could serve that purpose).

 

[noeuphoria]

The weapons in the players handbook that talk about tripping (i.e. ranseur, spiked chain, kama) talk about allowing a character to drop them if the trip attack fails. So the benefit of these weapons is not that they allow "tripping" while wielding them, but that they allow you to avoid being tripped if you goof up. Characters don't need a free hand to trip, just like they don't need a free hand to grapple.

 

[Ottergame]

Yes, page 139, "Unarmed Attacks." "Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts..." So you can trip with your hands full, as an unarmed strike.

However, under "Tripping with a weapon", page 159, there is a list of weapons that allow you to trip with them, all of the same weapons say you may trip with them in their description. Unless you can find somewhere in the rules that say "You can trip with any weapon", then you cannot trip with any weapon that doesn't specifially say you can. Being able to trip is not a default ability among weapons.

I need to make this as my signature. "Don't assume the rules say something they do not."

 

[Ottergame]

n/m

 

[JimAde]

Yes, page 139, "Unarmed Attacks." "Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts..." So you can trip with your hands full, as an unarmed strike.

However, under "Tripping with a weapon", page 159, there is a list of weapons that allow you to trip with them, all of the same weapons say you may trip with them in their description. Unless you can find somewhere in the rules that say "You can trip with any weapon", then you cannot trip with any weapon that doesn't specifially say you can. Being able to trip is not a default ability among weapons.

I need to make this as my signature. "Don't assume the rules say something they do not."

I don't think that whether or not you can trip while your hands are full has anything to do with "tripping with" a weapon. "Tripping with" a weapon means using the weapon specifically to trip. That is, the weapon itself is hooked around a limb (or whatever) and used in the trip. That's why you can avoid the counter-trip by dropping the weapon. It's the main point of contact.

I house-rule that you need at least one hand free to trip if you are doing an unarmed trip. If you are using a weapon you have to use that weapon normally (i.e. in both hands if it's 2-handed, etc.).

 

[Ottergame]

You actually don't need a free hand to trip. You can try to kick someone's legs out from under them as easily as you can reach down and try to pull their legs out from under them. You just provoke an AoO for doing so unless you have Improved Trip.

 

[Khaalis]

I don't think that whether or not you can trip while your hands are full has anything to do with "tripping with" a weapon. "Tripping with" a weapon means using the weapon specifically to trip. That is, the weapon itself is hooked around a limb (or whatever) and used in the trip. That's why you can avoid the counter-trip by dropping the weapon. It's the main point of contact.

The other point that this applies to is that you can gain a lot of other bonuses with a weapon that you dont normally gain from an unarmed attack - ie; Weapon Focus, Enhancement Bonuses etc. This, along with dropping the weapon, are the reasons certain weapons are "trip" while others are not.

I agree that a trip may be made while armed. Remember that in a full attack progression, not all attacks need be made with the held weapon. Unarmed attacks can be attampted at any point in the iterative attack progression.

 

[Kemrain]

I must agree. Having been tripped by nothing more than a leg and a push from a shoulder, I can confidently state that you can trip with your hands full. Or without hands. Or without arms.

- Kemrain the Embarrassed to be so Easily Tripped.

"I rolled a one, sue me!"