D&D General Tweak to Multiclass Spellcasting Rules: Do You Think it Would Break the Game?

It might be too strong for a +1. The way D&D stats work is weird (since 3e). If you have a 16 and add a +1, it doesn't do anything immediate. If you have a 17 and add +1, it has the same effect as if you had a 16 and added +2. If you have an odd score, you basically get the stat boost and the benefits. That's fine for weak feats like Actor.

Is this a weak feat? I'm inclined to say that in the situations where it is applicable, it's pretty strong, and therefore that it shouldn't have a +1. IMO, if I were playing something like a sor2/wiz3, I would pay a feat to have access to fireball. Sure, missing the opportunity to boost my primary casting stat would sting, but now I have a wizard subclass, meta magic, and fireball. All for delaying that +1 on my spell DCs. That's not a bad deal IMO.

If you think it needs a little something extra, I would add something other than a +1 stat.
Yeah I’m familiar with the stat mod math… but I guess where I’m coming from is that since 5.5e full feats are nearly eliminated… the only full feats left are origin feats and fighting style feats. But all "regular" feats and epic boons are half feats now (well, besides ASI itself which is +2, obviously).

I don’t think it makes sense for this to be an origin feat, given that it’s useless at 1st level… so that would make it a regular feat, and hence likely a half-feat.

I’m not against designing new full feats though. I think having them opens up the design space for more powerful effects than those which a half-feat can provide, and that’s an interesting prospect. I’m just not sure if this particular effect warrants that treatment, but yeah, maybe!
 

log in or register to remove this ad

So… here is an attempt at creating a feat for this based on the recent posts…

Combined Studies (v0.1)
Requirements: Spellcasting feature from two or more classes

Ability Score Increase. Increase the ability score associated with one of your spellcasting features by 1, to a maximum of 20.

Unified Magic. You have dabbled in various kinds of magic and discovered commonalities between them, allowing you to approach the abilities of those who specialize in a single path. For spells which are present in the lists of more than one of the classes granting you the spellcasting feature, you can sum up the levels in those classes (considering fractional levels for the half-caster and third-caster classes) to determine whether you are capable of preparing those spells. Doing so is more taxing than preparing a spell using the levels of a single class, and you therefore need to allocate a prepared spell in each of the classes which are contributing necessary levels. If a given class only lets you learn or swap prepared spells when leveling up, then you must wait until then to do so as normal, even if the total levels would otherwise be sufficient. You can choose which spellcasting ability to use for that spell from those of any of the contributing classes.

Thoughts?
 
Last edited:

I assume the double-preparation requirement is to offset the +1?

I think that it is problematic as written. Let's say I dip two levels of a class like sorcerer, then continue 18 levels as a wizard. I'll never be able to use this feat since I can only swap my sorcerer spells when I level up as a sorcerer, which I'm not doing. I need to take more levels of sorcerer just to benefit from this feat.

On the other hand, a cleric/druid multi can make easy use of it. It's awkward for a sor/wiz, whose prepared spell is now "locked". And it would be practically useless for a bard/sor, who has to level up twice just to make this feat provide a benefit.

I would say if you go this route, when you learn/prepare the spell from one class, you can replace a learned spell from the other class (so that learned caster multis can still make use of this feat just as well as prepared casters). I think that's a bit awkward though.

Personally, if I were to go this route, I would probably just make it so that if you learn/prepare a spell using this feat, it also replaces a spell on your other class' list of learned/prepared spells, until you unlearn/unprepare it. So if the Sor2/Wiz4 prepares fireball, one of their sorcerer spells becomes unavailable until fireball is unprepared. Thats a better quality of life, and makes it at least somewhat equitable across combinations.

Though my advice would still be to drop the double prep and drop the +1. IMO, just because the other 5.5 feats do it, doesn't mean this one has to. I think it's strong enough as a feat to warrant being an outlier.
 

I assume the double-preparation requirement is to offset the +1?

It is an attempt to balance the power of the ability in and of itself, not just related to the +1, though it is certainly arguable whether that is necessary or not.

I think that it is problematic as written. Let's say I dip two levels of a class like sorcerer, then continue 18 levels as a wizard. I'll never be able to use this feat since I can only swap my sorcerer spells when I level up as a sorcerer, which I'm not doing. I need to take more levels of sorcerer just to benefit from this feat.

Yeah… it is a bummer, for sure, but not sure it’s a big deal…? A few thoughts on that:

1. First, just a quick look at the applicability of this feat to that build, a Sorc2/Wiz18 does (eventually) get access to 9th level Wizard spells even without this feat. So for this build, that feat’s main attraction would be to prep the spells earlier, but not to get any that they could not ever get by level 20. It would be good, but not necessarily the main target demographic.

2. Second, regarding the overall design intents of 5e, I assume that classes which have more limited spell swapping mechanics are this way for balance reasons. It is part of a Wizard’s power to have the ability to swap spells from day-to-day (and even during the day once they get Memorize Spell at 5th level). We could make spell-swapping easier for all classes, but then that is essentially a whole other ability that this feat would grant in addition to the ability of higher level prep. And while it’s true that the feat as I have written it in the first version above helps some class combos more than others (and we could argue therefore is unbalanced), if we gave enhanced swapping mechanics as part of the feat that too would help some class combos more than others (and therefore still be unbalanced, but in a different way). It’s a tough nut to crack…

3. Regarding the mechanic of needing to go back and re-level-up an old class just to swap its spells… I think it feels thematically appropriate. This kind of character is truly straddling different fields of studies, and they feed off of one another, but that positive interaction requires continuing to fuel both buckets with further efforts. Also, from a balance perspective it provides more benefit to builds that are more evenly split between classes, which we could argue under vanilla rules are the builds which are most underpowered, whereas it provides less benefit to builds that are heavily skewed towards a single class. Going back to the Sorc/Wiz example… a Sorc2/Wiz18 or Sorc3/Wiz17 is actually quite good even under vanilla rules, and doesn’t necessarily need a big boost. Whereas a Sorc10/Wiz10 is probably considered by most optimizers to be quite a bit weaker, so it’s not a bad thing if the feat naturally boosts that weaker build more than the one which is already strong.

That being said, I’ll take a stab at writing the feat in a different way, just so we can see what that would look like…

Combined Studies (v0.2)
Requirements: Spellcasting feature from two or more classes

Flexible Learner. Whenever you gain a level in any of your spellcasting classes, you can exercise the ability to swap prepared spells in all of your spellcasting classes. If a given class lets you swap a fixed quantity of prepared spells when gaining a level, then you can still swap only that specified amount for that specific class.

Unified Magic. You have dabbled in various kinds of magic and discovered commonalities between them, allowing you to approach the abilities of those who specialize in a single path. For spells which are present in the lists of more than one of the classes granting you the spellcasting feature, you can sum up the levels in those classes (considering fractional levels for the half-caster and third-caster classes) to determine whether you are capable of preparing those spells. Doing so is more taxing than preparing a spell using the levels of a single class, and you therefore need to allocate a prepared spell in each of the classes which are contributing necessary levels. You can choose which spellcasting ability to use for that spell from those of any of the contributing classes.

Now that I think of it… it might not be bad to make those into two distinct half-feats… you had originally said maybe this ability should be multiple feats, and yeah, maybe it should be. This would be one way to do it. I could see some builds wanting to benefit from just one or the other of these abilities.

BTW, I am thinking to add a clause specifically for the Bard’s Magical Secrets saying that spells gained this way don’t count as being on your Bard’s list for the sake of this feat… it’s a bit too powerful otherwise, IMHO.
 
Last edited:

If you want to give Metamagic back to the Wizard, I'd either go the route of the old spells (Extension I, II & III, Mordenkainen's Lucubration, Squaring the Circle, etc.) or create a feat akin called something like Metamancer that gives you a couple metamagics and the points to use them.
Not making metamagic effects an inherent aspect of the upcasting rules was a terrible mistake in my opinion.
 

Not making metamagic effects an inherent aspect of the upcasting rules was a terrible mistake in my opinion.
Agreed. The 3e design was much better IMO.



On a different note, the feats above are much more powerful for a Wiz1/Sorc19 than for a Sorc1/Wiz19, and I don’t like that 😅

Might need to cancel the whole project over this 😂
 

or create a feat akin called something like Metamancer that gives you a couple metamagics and the points to use them.
improved metamagic adept:
+1 int, wis or cha
you learn 2 metamagic options
you gain a number of Sorcery points equal to your proficiency bonus

you can take this feat 3 times.
 

On one hand, if no one will play that anyway, then who cares about its complexity? It affects no one. Sure, it might not be worth the paper or digital bits it's printed on, but it has no practical downside if no one's choosing to be affected by it...
Because you have to present it to all your players, who ostensibly will need to review it before deciding they don't care.
 

Because you have to present it to all your players, who ostensibly will need to review it before deciding they don't care.
I am sensitive to the issue of cognitive load caused by having a large number of suboptimal choices… but we should not overstate its impact either. What you describe seems very unlikely to me, in the sense that even under normal rules, the vast majority of players do not read the 100+ pages of classes and subclasses in the PHB before building their first (or even their seventh) character. For most players, it suffices to glance over the first page of the class and go "yeah, got it, this class begs a patron for their powers and that’s a tremendously underwhelming aesthetic, so no thanks, let’s see if the next class can be a hero on their own" and just like that, they completely skipped the need to learn about how pact spellcasting works.

But anyway, the main point I was trying to make was not the one you quoted, but rather the one right after that… which is that if a given build is never going to get picked by anyone, that might be a symptom that the game is unbalanced, and overly penalizes that specific combo.
 

But anyway, the main point I was trying to make was not the one you quoted, but rather the one right after that… which is that if a given build is never going to get picked by anyone, that might be a symptom that the game is unbalanced, and overly penalizes that specific combo.
Every combo isn't balanced, some just don't work together optimally.
 

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Remove ads

Top