Two questions - init order & weapon damage

[Piratecat]

Two separate questions came up in the last few weeks, and I'm curious what the correct rulings might be (since I might have ruled wrong).

1. Two monsters go on initiative 16 and are flanking a character. That character has a cloak that can teleport her away as an immediate reaction when struck. Do the monsters attack simultaneously on their initiative, such that she can't avoid one of their attacks, or do they go one at a time on their initiative, which would allow her to teleport away after the first attack?

2. A weapon power does "str bonus damage" with no "w" damage at all (such as a power that might let you push someone but do minimal damage in the process.) Let's say you have a +3 sword and an 18 strength. Are you doing 4 points of damage (str bonus only) when using the power, or 7 points (str bonus + weapon's magic)? And where the heck is this detailed?

Thanks!

 

[Dan'L]

1) The monsters acting on the same initiative still have separate turns; it's the same way that a PC can take OAs at each one of them. One monster must perform its move/minor/standards before the other one can act. Furthermore, actions are never exactly simultaneous; even if one moves and readies an attack for when its ally moves into flanking position, the readied attack is an interrupt which is a separate action from its allies attack, and either can be interrupted by the PCs interrupt power.

2) As detailed in the PHB, p. 225, the item description for each individual weapon includes a line "ENHANCEMENT" that tells you to what you get to apply your weapon's enhancement bonus. Most, if not all, weapons tell you that it applies to attack rolls and damage rolls made with the weapon. Static damage such as "Str modifier damage" is not a roll, and therefore does not add on bonuses that apply to damage rolls.

-Dan'L

 

[mneme]

(ninjaed. Keeping as the answer to #1 is still interesting)

1. Reactions go -immediately- after the thing they're responding to. So after the first one attacks, the cloak goes off and the character is elsewhere. A fascinating question is a readied action (to attack) vs an immediate reaction -- they're both immediate reactions on the same trigger, so... I'd guess initiative bonus order?

2. I think you have to look at each bonus separately; some add to damage, some add to damage -rolls-. fun, isn't it? But magic weapons and impliments typically add to rolls.

 

[Mengu]

1. Reactions go -immediately- after the thing they're responding to. So after the first one attacks, the cloak goes off and the character is elsewhere. A fascinating question is a readied action (to attack) vs an immediate reaction -- they're both immediate reactions on the same trigger, so... I'd guess initiative bonus order?

Indeed when this happens, or when there are multiple readied actions on the same trigger, the resolutions I've seen are one of:

1. First creature who readied goes first.
2. The creature with higher initiative goes first.
3. They make a new opposed initiative check, and the higher result goes first.
4. One creature concedes to the other.

I don't much like #1 as it requires remembering who readied first. If it's a trivial resolution #2 or #4 are most likely what I would use. If it's something that could be climactic, I'd use #3.

 

[jasin]

2) As detailed in the PHB, p. 225, the item description for each individual weapon includes a line "ENHANCEMENT" that tells you to what you get to apply your weapon's enhancement bonus. Most, if not all, weapons tell you that it applies to attack rolls and damage rolls made with the weapon. Static damage such as "Str modifier damage" is not a roll, and therefore does not add on bonuses that apply to damage rolls.

A twist on the original question: if a power says "3[W] + Wis damage, if [condition is true] you deals additional 1[W] damage" is this 3 weapon dice + Wis + bonuses to weapon damage rolls (enhancement &c.) + 1 weapon die + bonus to weapon damage rolls; or 4 weapon dice + Wis + bonuses to weapon damage rolls?

I can't check the powers to quote, but I'm thinking about the Zealous Assassin (avenger paragon path) encounter attack, and I think several barbarian powers deal an additional 1[W] damage under certain conditions.

 

[Piratecat]

Hmm. I was wrong on #1, and kept it wrong when a player objected, and right on #2, but changed it to wrong when a player objected.

Thank you for the fast responses.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hmm. I was wrongexercising DM discretion on #1, and kept it wrongexercised when a player objected, and right on #2, but changed it to wrongaccommodate my players when a player objected.

Never admit error!

-Hyp.

 

[renau1g]

Yeah just remember that player the next time you're giving out treasure

 

[DracoSuave]

A twist on the original question: if a power says "3[W] + Wis damage, if [condition is true] you deals additional 1[W] damage" is this 3 weapon dice + Wis + bonuses to weapon damage rolls (enhancement &c.) + 1 weapon die + bonus to weapon damage rolls; or 4 weapon dice + Wis + bonuses to weapon damage rolls?

I can't check the powers to quote, but I'm thinking about the Zealous Assassin (avenger paragon path) encounter attack, and I think several barbarian powers deal an additional 1[W] damage under certain conditions.

Additional damage is not an additional damage roll.

4[W] + modifiers damage.

 

[eamon]

Indeed when this happens, or when there are multiple readied actions on the same trigger, the resolutions I've seen are one of:

1. First creature who readied goes first.
2. The creature with higher initiative goes first.
3. They make a new opposed initiative check, and the higher result goes first.
4. One creature concedes to the other.

I don't much like #1 as it requires remembering who readied first. If it's a trivial resolution #2 or #4 are most likely what I would use. If it's something that could be climactic, I'd use #3.

Yeah - this is a bit of an issue sometimes. If it matters and the creatures don't agree, I'd use #3. #2 doesn't make much sense to me (why would you be faster just because you rolled well initially - and why would you be slower/faster because you happened to have delayed previously). #1 is a hassle and I don't see the common sense here. Opposed rolls for determining who goes first are pretty well established, for instance for combat itself.

For example, this becomes very relevant if you have a cunning bard in the group - he'll make this kind of strategy very unattractive for the monsters, since if the first one misses, the PC can get slid out of harms way and the second monster loses his trigger. (This kind of thing could happen with twin strike and other multiattack powers too, but it's not as common).