D&D 5E Ultimate Good Guy

paladinn

Explorer
Buiding what I call the "Ultimate Good Guy".. probably using Aasimar as race. Would like to MC Paladin (either Devotion or Vengeance), Divine Soul Sorcerer and/or Celestial Warlock. Should be compatible since all three are CHA-based.

Backstory: the character was found on the doorstep of a church/temple and was raised by the clerics. He felt the divine power running through his veins from an early age. In adolescene he was visited by a solar who told him he was chosen as his master's vessel. By the time he was a young adult, he fully embraced the call to paladin-hood.

I know the MC is very limiting on all three classes. Is it viable at all? Should I keep it to 2 classes? If so, which two? What should be the sequence of advancement, and what spells/ features/ feats should I choose?

Thanks, all!

Michael
 

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Istbor

Dances with Gnolls
For advancement that depends. Are we talking for flavor or power?

From what you just typed up, it sounds like Sorcerer (born with divine power), then Warlock (young age visitation), finally Paladin (since you would later start training) However it really can be played around with as well. Holding off the two caster classes with the reason that the power was there, but only recently learned to tap into it. In that case you could start with Paladin.

From a power building perspective, Paladin snags you weapon and armor proficiency. However Sorcerer can give you proficiency in con saves to help with concentration checks.

A lot of it is going to be, "what do you feel is right for the story"? At least, that is my opinion. Are you sold on the three different classes?
 

Phion

Explorer
I can recommend feats on what you said, he sounds like a shield kind of man (as in the equipment AND the spell).

For feats the 3 that come to mind are sentinel, shield master and war caster (not saying to have all 3, just pick around your focus).
-Sentinel would allow you to get a extra hit (smite) in while deterring the DM from focusing on another player
-Shield master because shield things and saves. Maybe knock a man to the ground.
-War caster because it helps to maintain your buffs to other player characters. I recommend this one because it would be different to what I have seen others play.

For your oath pick devotion because it is less edgy. I have no other reason. Sorry.
-
 

paladinn

Explorer
Not 100% sold on the classes, but definitely on the concept. It seems the 3 I've considered most definitely lead themselves to a true "good guy".

It's both flavor and power.. just not sure about the sequence and what-to-take-when.

If I take 3 levels of Warlock (whenever), I get a pact boon. Should I pick blade or tomb? I can see some sort of bastard sword as the pact weapon; but the extra cantrips would be awesome too. And definitely want E-blast + Agonizing, with radiant damage.

For paladin, can a Vengeance paladin be a true "good guy"? I'm thinking yes. And loving smite potential. And soo much to be gleaned from the Divine Soul too.

I'm thinking paladin as the basis, adding warlock and/or sorcerer later. But how and when?
 

Phion

Explorer
Not 100% sold on the classes, but definitely on the concept. It seems the 3 I've considered most definitely lead themselves to a true "good guy".

It's both flavor and power.. just not sure about the sequence and what-to-take-when.

If I take 3 levels of Warlock (whenever), I get a pact boon. Should I pick blade or tomb? I can see some sort of bastard sword as the pact weapon; but the extra cantrips would be awesome too. And definitely want E-blast + Agonizing, with radiant damage.

For paladin, can a Vengeance paladin be a true "good guy"? I'm thinking yes. And loving smite potential. And soo much to be gleaned from the Divine Soul too.

I'm thinking paladin as the basis, adding warlock and/or sorcerer later. But how and when?

I kinda of get you in terms of what you are designing, but I think you could achieve it with a simple class dip instead of 3 classes. Also not sure why you would see warlock as the type that calls good guy, typically I see them as possibly morally ambiguous as they are making deals with higher powers to attain more power (typically seen as evil).

Now if in terms of story you saying he is warlock because he started off as a paladin seeking vengeance, but he will do anything to achieve goal and has made a pact with a higher being since he could not achieve it as he was going, then that is pretty cool. But that style does not seem like "ultimate good guy", but it sounds way cooler.
 

paladinn

Explorer
The warlock (celestial) would come in because he was approached/chosen by a Solar (or planetar, or diva, or whatever). The celestial warlock was developed specifically to allow a patron option that is Not evil.

I know that game-wise, it might make more sense to start with paladin. Istbor was suggesting putting off the caster class(es) because the power is latent. But if the power is part of his background, it makes more sense that it would manifest before settling on the paladinate.

What would/should be the long-term career? If I "dip", should it be into the two other classes or just one? How many levels of each?
 

Phion

Explorer
Ah okay fair enough, honestly if you do not intend to put a lot of levels/start as paladin I would perhaps scrap paladin completly or just goto level 2 for divine smite.
Okay ill just make a build here of a style I think would be cool or at least make you understand what you do not want. I will go up to level 8 since that seems like a good realistic representation.

Start level 1 sorcerer divine soul to go with backstory and then focus purely all 7 levels on paladin and crown as oath. The warlock would take away your spell slots and starting ass a sorcerer will give you saves into con which is good for concentration saves (which is important for later).

Part of me wanted to say focus on buffing everyone but you do that as paladin anyway passively. Instead lets slaughter evil. As the feat take polearm master and then fighting style tunnel fighter, whenever a creature enters your 10 ft reach stab them and maybe smite, anything too close on your turn you can attack annnnd your bonus action d4 damage can also smite. By the time you get to level 12 (11 full paladin) you will add a extra d8 on all attacks regardless so combined with you polearm master feat and tunnel fighter FS there will be much dps. Sorcerer spells at level 1 should have Shield because more AC is good especially as you will draw aggro and feather fall because falling is bad, luckily with a polearm you can let go with 1 hand and do somatic components.

Sadly you need to use a feat to get heavy armour and plus 1 str
 

paladinn

Explorer
So no warlock? Honestly EB is the main reason for it (especially if it can deal radiant damage). 3 levels of warlock gives me a great at-will distance attack.

Why crown paladin? If I've going with my theme, I'd think devotion or vengeance would be the way to go.

Like you said, let's slaughter evil :) In a righteous way, of course..
 

juggerulez

First Post
my two cents

what are you gonna do with him? first liner defender of the weak persona or a "generic purpouse" good guy?

if you want to hit first line and overall stand between the squishy and the BBEGs, paladin is your best choice, but paladins have some downsides that can easily be fixed by dipping 2 levels of warlock (in my meta, warlock 2/ anything else is my go to dip for anything really).
Standing as a second liner, your best bet is a blaster (sorcerer comes to mind) but if you go for a pure caster class, dipping isn't adviceable (especially sorcerers) due slot progression halting mostly (which might be slightly endured better if dipping at least warlock 2/3 but only if you need a plethora of low level slots)

Steady damage dealers are better than nova ones, in my books, so if you have UA material at hand, please consider the ultra cheesy meta: hexblade warlock and hand crossbows + sharpshooter and xbow expert. If you can reliably take advantage to offset the -5 atk from ss (battlemaster's trip, for instance or a team mate that reliably shoves prone your targets), those are 30 damage per round applied straight from a feat, for an average of 57 damage per round (before adding hex/hunter's mark).


how many levels you think you will gain? are you starting from a certain point or is this some long therm agenda?


if you are going for a level 1 to level infinity type of game, if you plan to MC be advised that your character will be subpar until it hits certain breakpoints (explained below), if you start from a fixed level there is some sweet wiggle room to fix your game before even starting.

With booming blade/green flame blade, rushing "extra attack" is no longer a priority (one longsword swing is 1d8+stat, level 5 BB/GFB is +1d8 elemental damage + extra - you get some you loose some) but since you will get that eventually, you should remember that cantrips are not replaceable but by the time you start hitting twice per attack action, they won't matter that much anymore.

Best breakpoints are:

warlock 2 (hit almost immediately because of sick versatility), which provides:
eldritch blast (best blast in game) and booming blade (i usually avoid GFB because 70% of monsters resist fire);
2 1st level slots per rest (usually 1 long and 2 short per day mean 6 1st level slots, 6 hexes, 6 2d8 smites, 6 healing elixirs, etc)
2 eldritch invocations: best in slots are agonizing blast if you specialize in blasts, fiendish vigor for 8 temp hp per combat and Devil's Sight aka 120ft magic darkvision, which you will miss if you go with human variant (plain and simple the best class to minmax since it provides you a feat and two +1 of your choice, which becomes three +1 if you go for specialist feats such as resilient or heavy armor master).

Paladin 6 (any spec) (Oath of Vengeance "tier 2 end of the build" breakpoint) for the +ST aura, since you will probably suck hard on dex and wis (especially if you start your array with 15 str 15 con and 15 cha)
Should be rushed if your DM loves his casters, not a priority if your DM runs Adventurers League legit modules/hardcover.
Oath of Vengeance "tier 2 end of the build" breakpoint because going further down the Paladin line has little to provide. You could move half your movement when you proc an attack of opportunity, yes, but why bother? Yes you could reach Paladin 8 and get the second ASI but is it really that important? Most of the builds won't need a 3rd feat (i'm implying that you went human variant, of course) and while I will totally agree that hitting 20 in a stat is a priority, I'm more of a "survival of the fittest" type of gamer and will take Invocations over +2 in a stat any time of the day.

Paladin 7 (Oath of Ancients) for the "resistance to any spell damage" which means that if the source is a spell (not just a slotted spell, but any "x/day" ones or magic items uses too), you get to resist its damage, even psychic or untyped one. If the spell's source has elemental affinity (PVP comes to mind) it won't work because yours is not an elemental resistance

Paladin 8 (The "tier 2 end of the build" break point for any non vengeance paladin). Yes you could go for paladin 9 for 3rd level smites and spells but they are non essential in tier 2 games. Yes you could rush Aura of Courage at level 10th, but why bother? frighten is not a permanent debuff and is still subjected to Will STs. Monsters' DCs usually vary between 12 and 17 and provided that you have proficiency in Wis ST and Aura of Protection, you should stand around a +5 will ST (wis -1, prof +3 cha +3). If I play Tier 2, I won't ever get over Paladin 8, It really is a subpar choice.

Sorcerer x I'd never MC a sorcerer or any other "the highest slot you can achieve, the better" type of class. Exception made for Life clerics, whose characters I usually dip in the Warlock 2 sauce due the fact that Life cleric's Disciple of Life performs way better on low level spells than high level ones (cleric 3/warlock 2 has 10 1st level spell slots, just saying).

Best starting points are:

Paladin 11 (any) for tier 3 games, Improved Divine Smite.
Paladin 9/Warlock 2 (also Paladin 8/Warlock 3 works fine) for tier 3 games, yes you are going to fill the gap to paladin 11 and it will feel as long as eternity, but if your DM loves dungeon crawling, traps and darkness, Eldritch Invocations are a must.
Paladin 3/Warlock 2 for tier 2 games, you won't need to attack twice per round since BB/GFB are in play, the more 1st level slots you have, the best survivability you boast.
Paladin 1, if you must start from level 1, best class to start with is the one that provides you highest AC, HP and overall survivability :)


Bonus track:

Ultra cheesy build: Paladin x, Str 13, Hexblade warlock dip, hand crossbow, sharpshooter and crossbow expert feats. You won't smite with a ranged weapon but you can employ Hexes/Hunter's Marks instead. You won't even need paladin class for this build to perform (actually Battlemaster is better but you will miss Auras, mind you).

Close Quarter Shooter build: Paladins originally can't pick anything ranged combat related, UA's CQS is available though, which means that you can pick this one as your Fighting Style and spam Eldritch Blasts in melee. War Caster feat and Sorcerer's quickened metamagic mean that you can spam several EBs per round... 1-4 to 4-16 beams consistently (for the reaction one you might need to rely on some teamwork though).
 
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