Uncanny Dodge/Sneak Attacks.. when?

[Lanfyr Sabermoon]

If you have a lone 2nd level barbarian walking down a road, being attacked by a lone 9th level rogue, when could the rogue sneak attack?

Uncanny Dodge says a rogue four levels higher CAN flank you, but a solo rogue cannot get sneak attacks because the lowly 2nd level Barbarian CANNOT be denied his Dex due to being flat footed/struck by an invisible attacker (and if flat out invisibility doesn't deny Dex, I don't see how anything lesser will either. Ergo, you cannot deny the Barb's Dex by doing Bluff-Feint/Quicker than the Eye combos either. . it says specifically under those rules that if a QttE is successful, the target cannot SEE you, and the FAQ further confirms that)

This means that any feat with that qualification doesn't work, ie the "holy grail" of rogue feats, Expert Tactician.

So: Assuming a Lone 2nd level Barbarian*, walking down a path, suddenly attacked by a singular rogue of ANY level.. when can the barbarian suffer sneak attacks?

*The Barbarian is not Running, Stunned, Helpless, Pinned, Climbing, Cowering, Off Balance, or Grappling.

Basically, the thrust of this inquiry is that the Uncanny Dodge ability states to me, that all sight and surprise qualifiers (The second and third most common means of sneak attack) are removed from consideration at 2nd level Barbarian.
At 5th level Barbarian, of course, the Number One most common means of sneak attack is also removed with some conditions still in place. There are no such conditions for the sight and surprise methods of sneak attack. No rogue can ever use sight or surprise to sneak attack any character with Uncanny Dodge abilities equal to the ones gained at 2nd level Barbarian.

Correct? or am I missing something horrendously obvious?

 

[shilsen]

Correct? or am I missing something horrendously obvious?

Incorrect. You are extrapolating from one situation (invisible opponent) to another (opponent who bluff/feints). A barbarian of any level is susceptible to a feint and its results, since Uncanny Dodge does not apply (because there's no mention of feinting in the ability description).

 

[jontherev]

Incorrect. You are extrapolating from one situation (invisible opponent) to another (opponent who bluff/feints). A barbarian of any level is susceptible to a feint and its results, since Uncanny Dodge does not apply (because there's no mention of feinting in the ability description).

That's right. Except, UD would help against blinking I think, which does bypass Blindsight. That's about as far as I would extrapolate the UD ability personally. Expert Tactician works just fine, as does QttE.

 

[Lanfyr Sabermoon]

That's what I thought initially

If we only had the Bluff rules as printed in the PHB, I would agree with you, but as the FAQ is intended to further expand and clarify all the rules, we (or at least I) have to take the FAQ into account as well, and that's where I'm running into my problem.

The FAQ states that the Bluffed character loses his Dex bonus to AC (thus allowing the rogue to make sneak attacks*).
The FAQ also states the reason for the loss of Dex due to a successful bluff. {Bold emphasis in quote}

I found the description for the Quicker Than the Eye feat confusing. Do you get an actual extra partial action granted to you if any foe (even 1 out of 20 goblins) fails the Spot check? Or is this feat meant to just allow you to make one attack after bluffing in the same round?

Quicker Than the Eye doesn't give you any extra actions. Creatures that fail their Spot checks just don't see what you're doing for the rest of the round. Once you make your Bluff check (as a move-equivalent action) you can do just about anything with the remainder of your round. Because you have already made a move-equivalent action, you have only a partial action left. You could use that partial action to attack, move, use a skill, cast a spell, or any one of a number of other things (see Partial Actions in Chapter 8 of the Player's Handbook). Note that what you can do after the Bluff check does not depend at all on the outcome of your opponents' Spot checks, but any opponent who makes a successful Spot check observes what you do with your partial action.

Suppose I'm a rogue with the Expert Tactician feat from Sword and Fist and the Quicker Than the Eye feat from Song and Silence. If I'm in melee with an opponent and use a move-equivalent action to Bluff my foe and get him to look away, can I do the extra attack from the Expert Tactician feat? If I do that, can I then use my remaining partial action to run away? What happens if I use my partial action to use Bluff again? Can I then make a second free attack?

An opponent who fails to detect your Bluff when you use Quicker Than the Eye does not see the partial action you take after the Bluff, so your opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus against your melee attacks. If you also have the Expert Tactician feat, you can make an immediate free attack against a foe who failed his Spot check against your Bluff. Once you do so, that opponent is observing you again, and that opponent will observe you if you try to run away after the free attack. Because the attack you make by virtue of your Expert Tactician feat is a free action, you could attempt to use Quicker Than the Eye again, but your opponent should get a large bonus to the Spot check. The second Bluff check also is a move-equivalent action, you can attempt two move equivalent actions per turn, so if you attempted the second Bluff, you would be done acting for the round. If the second Bluff check succeeded, however, your opponent would once again not see you, and you could make another free attack by virtue of your Expert Tactician feat.

Note the logic both times: Opponent does not SEE, therefore is denied Dex.

Also, the Expert Tactician doesn't kick in until your opponent is denied his Dex bonus for whatever reason (Climbing, Running, Helpless, etc) , so I was wrong to even include Expert Tactician in my example, thus confusing the issue. Whether or not the rogue has Expert Tactician is irrelevant, because if the Barbarian is denied his Dex bonus, ET will work, no question. The question remains solely :
When is a 2nd Level Barbarian denied his Dex bonus*?

After that clarification from the FAQ, how can we say that a Bluff check works, considering not once, but TWICE, in the FAQ, WotC quite clearly states that the reason why you are denied your Dex bonus due to a successful Bluff check (Standard action w/out QttE, w/QttE move equivalent) is that the victim does not SEE the remainder of your action, thus meeting the normal conditions required for sneak attack*.

*Contrary to popular belief, being Flat Footed has absolutely no direct correlation to being able to sneak attack. Being denied your Dex bonus is why rogues are allowed to sneak attack ( that and flanking). Indirectly, when Flat Footed and/or not being able to see their attacker, most characters are denied their Dex bonus, but not 2nd level Barbarians, Rogues, and a handful of Prestige classes)

I welcome any and all comments or rebuttals about this. It still seems to me, that if a 5th level Barbarian
A)doesn't do "unusual" actions in combat (Running, Climbing, etc),
B)avoids being flanked by rogues 4 levels higher than he, and
C)can somehow make any saves vs. Stun/Paralysis/Hold spells, he cannot be sneak attacked.

 

[the Jester]

Remember that the FAQ is notoriously poorly researched and not reliable if you want a consistent set of rules for the game.

UD doesn't help you against bluffs as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Trine]

Quicker than the Eye is an odd feat, as it changes how Bluff works (in conjunction with the feat). Bluff is normally opposed by Sense Motive, not Spot, which is when the not seeing would apply.

A normal feinting Bluff against a Sense Motive would deny your enemy their Dex bonus (if any) to AC. This is still true for Barbarians and any classes that have Uncanny Dodge.

 

[Caliban]

Uncanny dodge only prevents you from losing your Dex bonus in two situations: being flat-footed and when facing an opponent who is invisible to you.

Any other situation that causes you to lose your Dex bonus would still apply: Climbing, Running, cowering, being feinted, being stunned, etc.

 

[Lanfyr Sabermoon]

Ok, thanks for the clarification!
Caliban responded to one of my threads! woo!

Ok, Uncanny Dodge doesn't protect against regular Bluff.. but I still have more questions.. I've been reading any and all threads I can get on this.. have no idea why, just really want know it from top to bottom I guess..

Anyways,

I'm really having a problem with the whole sight thing it seems.. if Uncanny Dodge has the power to prevent losing your Dex bonus without ever seeing where your opponent is striking from (as it would be in the case of invisible attackers) then shouldn't it , logically, cover any lesser sight related combat situations? Darkness, Blindness, Blinking, 100% concealment (assuming the rogue can see through it somehow), etc?

In this thread Q&A,
The Sage expanded the "attacked by invisible" part of Uncanny Dodge to "attacked by unseen", meaning (for example) that Blind UDers can't be sneak attacked as they cannot see their opponents. UD doesn't help with the rest of the blindness penalties, of course, just the "denied Dex" part.

My questions spring off of Triane's observation about how QttE modifies the Bluff action in combat, other than Standard>ME action. Why is Bluff opposed by Sense Motive normally, but when QttE is used, it is opposed by Spot? Would that not indicate a change in the methodology of how a rogue would use Bluff in combat with QttE?

Shouldn't Bluff be opposed by the same skill in both cases for consistency? Why the difference? Why does the Sage say it's for unseen attackers, then turn around two questions later in the same answer and say QttE can be used to defeat UD, even though it uses Spot, not Sense Motive as the counter, implying QttE-Bluff involves Sight, not Psychology? Should I not be reading all this into just one situational combo?

Either QttE is just waaay too nebulous for my poor brain, or I have a mental block.

Any additional answers would be greatly appreciated

 

[Caliban]

Ok, thanks for the clarification!
Caliban responded to one of my threads! woo!

Ok, Uncanny Dodge doesn't protect against regular Bluff.. but I still have more questions.. I've been reading any and all threads I can get on this.. have no idea why, just really want know it from top to bottom I guess..

Anyways,

I'm really having a problem with the whole sight thing it seems.. if Uncanny Dodge has the power to prevent losing your Dex bonus without ever seeing where your opponent is striking from (as it would be in the case of invisible attackers) then shouldn't it , logically, cover any lesser sight related combat situations? Darkness, Blindness, Blinking, 100% concealment (assuming the rogue can see through it somehow), etc?

Being Blind means that all your opponents are effectively invisible (see the definition of invisible in the PHB glossary.) So does being in darkness, so Uncanny Dodge would help there as well.

The Blink spell states that you strike as an invisible creature, so Uncanny Dodge would help ther as well. .

The Quicker Than the Eye feat allows you to distract your opponent, so that they put their attention elsewhere. It's not just that they don't see what you are doing (although that's part of it), it's that they are expecting you to be doing something else (or think something else is occuring that requires their attention) , and are reacting to what whatever you used to distract them. Thus they are not reacting to you, and since the loss of Dex is not just due to being unable to see you, Uncanny Dodge doesn't help.

 

[RigaMortus]

I always invisioned the Sense Motive part of Bluff (when Feinting) as something a kin to acting like you are going to strike with your left hand, but quickly attacking with your right. Where as the Spot check for QttE is more like saying, "Is that a dragon behind you?" and having them turn around to look for it while you stab them in the back.