Using C&C Saving Throws in 3E

[sinmissing]

Does anyone have any thoughts on how you would use the 6 Saving Throws from Castles & Crusades with 3xE? I've had some cursory ideas, but I'm not sure they are all that satisfying. If someone has tried this, I'd live to see how you did it.

For the most part, the 6 saves are just finer divisions of the main 3. There are exceptions of course. ie:

Paralysis & Constriction (STR) Use FOR save.
Arcane Magic & Illusion (INT) Use WIL save.
Confusion, Divine Magic, Gaze Attack, Petrification, Polymorph (WIS) Use WIL save.
Breath Weapon & Traps (DEX) Use REF save.
Disease, Energy Drain, & Poison (CON) Use FOR save.
Death Attack, Charm, & Fear (CHA) Use WIL save.

So a First Level fighter with the Default Array in that order (STR 15, DEX 14, CON 13, INT 12, WIS 10, CHA 8) would have the following saves.

Paralysis & Constriction (STR) +4
Arcane Magic & Illusion (INT) +1
Confusion, Divine Magic, Gaze Attack, Petrification, Polymorph (WIS) +0
Breath Weapon & Traps (DEX) +1
Disease, Energy Drain, & Poison (CON) +3
Death Attack, Charm, & Fear (CHA) -1

What do you think?

 

[Dragonhelm]

All you would have to do is swap some terminology. Make the Fort save = the Con-based saves, and so on. Your notes above look like what I'm thinking.

What I would be careful with is prestige classes that require a minimum base save. I would roughly figure up what level your character would need to be in 3e, then use that as a guide to determine which classes/levels you need to be prior to taking the PrC.

 

[DungeonmasterCal]

6 saving throws? Doesn't that go against the "rules light" mind set?

 

[Particle_Man]

Nah. They are so tied into the 6 attributes that a save vs. charm is just a charisma check. Since 3e has both attribute checks for 6 abilities and 3 saving throws (the latter of which are partly attribute based and partly class based), a game that has 6 attribute checks that double as saving throws is lighter by 3 things.

 

[Treebore]

C&C is also "lighter" in that the saves are more "intuitive" and therefore easier to remember. Plus it is ultimately up to a CK/DM to decide which stat save applies to the current saving throw. So as long as the CK/DM are good at being consistant none of the players should care/have any problems.

 

[tameszu]

C&C is also "lighter" in that the saves are more "intuitive" and therefore easier to remember. Plus it is ultimately up to a CK/DM to decide which stat save applies to the current saving throw. So as long as the CK/DM are good at being consistant none of the players should care/have any problems.

Trying to figure out the hermaneutics of whether an effect falls into "Death Attack, Charm, & Fear" or "Arcane Magic/Illusion" is "lighter" because it's easier to remember/more intuitive than "Will" vs. "Fortitude"?!?!

Um, no. I'd say that C&C is trying to go for 1st Edition feel, without considering that some of the 1st Ed. rules features kinda sucked.

 

[Akrasia]

Trying to figure out the hermaneutics of whether an effect falls into "Death Attack, Charm, & Fear" or "Arcane Magic/Illusion" is "lighter" because it's easier to remember/more intuitive than "Will" vs. "Fortitude"?!?!

Um, no. I'd say that C&C is trying to go for 1st Edition feel, without considering that some of the 1st Ed. rules features kinda sucked.

I disagree. The purpose of having six saving throws is NOT simply to recapture a '1e' feel. Rather, it is tied to the SIEGE rules of C&C, according to which each ability score serves an important function BOTH for task resolution (i.e. when the PC is attempting something) and saving throw resolution (i.e. when the PC is reacting to, or resisting, something). It also has the virtue of ensuring that there is no 'dump' stat (unlike 3e).

The overall system is much lighter than 3e (which has both ability score checks and a distinct set of ability score-based saving throws).

 

[Dragonhelm]

Um, no. I'd say that C&C is trying to go for 1st Edition feel, without considering that some of the 1st Ed. rules features kinda sucked.

That's very subjective. What sucks for you may not for others.

One thing I've noticed about C&C is that there's a certain focus on gaming flavor. I'll admit, a DM can use the D&D saves fairly easily. From a mechanical standpoint, they're great.

At the same time, though, there is nothing like seeing a player's face when you tell them they have to make a save vs. death.

There is merit in both systems. If you feel that C&C's saves aren't for you, stick with D&D.

 

[sinmissing]

Well. I didn't ask anyone to debate the specific gravity of their rule system, or their ability to adjudicate said system, nor did I ask anyone to compare it favorably or unfavorably to other systems.

Dragonhelm is the only one who actually found the thread, and responded to it. Thanks. Prestige Classes certainly pose an interesting issue, I'll have to give that some thought.

The rest of you have plently of room to have your slap fights in the number of other threads of C&C vs. 3E. If you were my children, I'd give you a stiff whack on the behind for interrupting the adults. SHAME on you! (insert: finger waggling and furrowed brow)

 

[Henry]

Tameszu, you should also know that the "save mechanic" above is also tied into the skill system that C&C uses as well. It works the same way, but your class and your background tie directly into how easy or difficult your chances are.

For instance, a Human Fighter who uses DEX in his combat style (in other words, one of his "prime attributes" is DEX), who is trying to walk a tightrope might have to roll 1d20 + level + DEX bonus to hit a target of 12. Another Hulking, Arnold Schwarxenegger type fighter might have to roll 1d20 + level + DEX bonus to hit a target of 18. The target itself might be raised by +5 or so because the rope is swaying violently because an enemy is shaking it.

In other words, the exact same system for saves is for skill checks. It's kinda like assuming that someone who is "a swashbuckler" has maxed out all his DEX-based skills that are available, and put nothing into any INT or WIS-based skills.

It's not for everyone - for the gamer who likes 3E's ability to put a point or two in listen, or a fighter who can't intimidate, jump or climb but can weave a throw-rug in his sleep - they wouldn't like the "catch-all" nature of primes, necessarily. But for someone who wants to assume that his charismatic mage is useful in all social skills without having to micro-manage a bunch of points, it may be more useful.