Vampire vs Lich

[Dreaddisease]

Vampire vs Lich

Looking at the stats the Vampire wastes the lichin equal CR.

Lich gets +2 to Int, Wis, Cha
Vampire gets Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4

Lich = no regeneration
Vampire: regen 5

Lich = Paralyzing touch with Fort save
Vampire = Slam attack, guaranteed Level loss.

Lich = keep spells
Vamp = keep spells

Lich = HD d12
Vamp = hd d12

Lich = +5 Natural Armor, does not stack
Vampire = +6 natural armor, stacks

Lich = turn resistance +4
Vamp = turn resistance +4

Lich = +8 Skill bonuses to a few...
Vamp = +8 skill bonuses to a few...

Lich = some cool stuff
Vamp = more cool stuff

Now lets do one last thing.

Lich = spend 120000 for a phylactery and 4800 XP
Vamp = gets to die for free, then regenerate.

Lich = some cool stuff
Vamp = more cool stuff

Anyone else find this odd that they are equal level increases?

 

[Crothian]

Most templates are horrible balanced when compared side by side. Is there any errata on either? That might make a difference.

 

[hammymchamham]

Liches can walk around durring the day

 

[zealot73]

First of all you have to understand that for a Wizard to attempt to make himself into a Lich he normally has to have access to 8th level spells at a minimum (this is going off of 2nd edition for the recipe for Lichdom). When you consider that the Lich will most likely have 15 levels (once again as a minimum) of Wizard or Necromancer and ONLY THEN can they cross over to Undeath on their own. Any joe-shmo can be turned into a Vampire but what makes a Lich truly nasty are all those levels of Wizard that they have prior to becoming a Lich... not the powers they gain from being a Lich. If you want the down and dirty on what all it takes to become a Lich check out Van Richten's Guide to Liches or the Green Encyclopedia Magicka and look up the Potion of Lichdom. I particularly like the Van Richten's Guide. It has some great ideas on additional abilities that Liches might have since it is foolish to think that all Liches have the exact same powers (well... they have the same core powers but develop more over time). I do agree that a Vampire Wizard would be truly horrifiying but always remember that a Lich doesn't fear sunlight or wooden stakes as a Vampire does. If you destroy it's body it is only gone temporarily... and most liches keep another body near their phylactery that they can instantly inhabit. Honestly though... unless a wizard is turned into a vampire early on it his/her career do you honestly think that any but the most powerful vampires could turn a 15th level Wizard? A single Teleport spell will whisk the Wizard away to safety with but a single word though I doubt the Wizard would run from that fight. Also, what Vampire would want to turn a 15th level Wizard? There is a really good chance that the newly made Vampire Wizard could usurp his master.

Sorry... I'm rambling.

 

[Rook]

While the Vampire template has many potent advantages, you shouldn't forget that it also has a large number of disadvantages. Sunlight, holy symbols, garlic, uninvited places and others. You should also remember that a lich's phylactery allows it to return to "life" unless it is destroyed seperately, which can be a major pain.

Also, while it's not part of the 3e vampire's definition, vampires are commonly proposed to need blood to sustain themselves. Liches have no such problems.

 

[zealot73]

What is truly nasty is the Clerical Lich. Typically the evil deity which created the Lich keeps the Lich's phylactery as a threat so that should the Lich ever be disloyal he may snuff out his life irrevocably. The problem this creates for the heros is that in order to truly destroy the Lich for all time they must travel to the Outer Planes and confront the deity to obtain the phylactery. As a DM myself I would see no reason that should the Lich's original body be destroyed that the deity would kill a devil or demon and allow the Lich's essence to inhabit that body. How about a Eryines/Lich Cleric. Now there's a nasty combination.

 

[Chacal]

Some random thoughts :
- having higher prereq is not intrinsec power
- not having limitations is not as cool as having powers

my suggestions :
- give some other powers to liches ( from already cited sources plus Monsters of faerun)
- give some sr to liches (they deserve it ) Might raise the CR/ECL...
- limit vampire charisma bonus to charisma based skills, not spellcasting

Chacal

 

[Balthasar]

Hmmmm

As a player I have to say...

beyond a certain level I cease to fear vampires...

I *never* cease to fear a liche....

 

[Jeremy]

Playtesting showed that vampires tended to be melee warriors of some kind and that the template was a little more than the equivalent of 2 higher CR and a little less than 3. So for XP award they got CR +2.

Liches have to be spellcasters to craft the phylactery, and at the level that they acquire the template, it doesn't effect their challenge very much in a single encounter so it is relatively light on the penalties of the template. But because of the fact that they can continually "respawn", they got more than a +1 CR increase, though just barely.

These two templates don't compare directly very well to each other because they are designed to be used in two entirely different games (high level and mid level) and because on average they are applied to different types of creatures so the effect they have on the challenge of those creatures is measured differently.

But most importantly, CR's are wide bands. Very wide in some cases. One CR 4 creature might be able to utterly trash another creature of the same CR repeatedly, over and over and over, but from the stand point of how much XP it should be worth to an iconic party, or how much of said party's resources it will take, or what level party will be able to take the creature with ease, they are somewhere in a range.

Rather than have CR 1, 1.2, 1.5, 1.7, and 1.9 they just have CR 1 to deal with all those power levels.

 

[Hand of Vecna]

minor quibble -- Vampires don't have Regeneration, they have Fast Healing.

Also, I think the MM errata said a Lich's Natural Armor stacks with the base creature's own, like a Vampire's.