Vow of Poverty at higher levels

[Thanee]

Looking at the list of exalted feats, I really have a hard time to see how a character with Vow of Poverty will pick exalted feats after like level 10 or so.

How do you do this? Do you just pick every single exalted feat you qualify for, regardless of how useless and pointless it is for your character?

I mean, really, that list should be like thrice as large at least to be able to live through level 20 (not even going into epic levels, the stuff partially doesn't even extend well into epic).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

I agree, there are too few exalted feats for this. Also most of them are relatively weak, but a couple are overly powerful :\ therefore I guess than the latter will be the first to be taken...

(Be prepared for the thread to turn into another debate about the VoP and whether it should give bonus feats ).

 

[Pax]

... that's why I stripped the Vow of Poverty down to ONE bonus exalted feat per FIVE levels. Well, that's part of why. The other part is, I didn't like ONE feat, creating up to ELEVEN more. Taking a few other vows alongside it, or similar, is okay though, IMO.

 

[Thanee]

The other part is, I didn't like ONE feat, creating up to ELEVEN more.

Hmm... you know that money can create feats as well?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pax]

No. Money can buy items whcih give the BENEFITS of feats - but those items can be taken away, destroyed, or otherwise made to be gone.

Actual feats, however, are extremely difficult to take away (you have to make someone not qualify for it's prerequisites anymore - which usually means permanently stripping them of levels, which is pretty damned harsh!)

For example, I would never ever allow a feat that gave the benefits of "Take another feat right now, and a bonus feat next level". That's just silly - it's like "wishing for more wishes".

 

[Cheiromancer]

I would never ever allow a feat that gave the benefits of "Take another feat right now, and a bonus feat next level". That's just silly - it's like "wishing for more wishes".

The feat would certainly have to have some pretty stern requirements. And give wimpy feats- like toughness, or skill focus, or an entry level feat.

 

[Deset Gled]

No. Money can buy items whcih give the BENEFITS of feats - but those items can be taken away, destroyed, or otherwise made to be gone.

...

For example, I would never ever allow a feat that gave the benefits of "Take another feat right now, and a bonus feat next level". That's just silly - it's like "wishing for more wishes".

Sounds to me like your problem is more with the concept of VoP than anything else. The reason for giving the bonus feats is that the player is giving up so much else; bonus feats are just a compensation. The fact that VoP is itself a feat is really just a matter of mechanics (what other options are there for it to be?).

Back to the original topic... Yes, there really aren't enough exalted feats. If I were to DM for a character with VoP, I would allow the player to request other feats to be substituted in for exalted feats. I would decide if a feat were okay case by case, and probably change a lot of feats slightly to show that they are supposed to be "exalted" in some way (Examples: Allow cleave, but only useable against evil creatures. Allow Weapon Focus, but only for the character's god's favored weapon).

 

[Thanee]

No. Money can buy items which give the BENEFITS of feats - but those items can be taken away, destroyed, or otherwise made to be gone.

Yeah, that's the primary benefit of the VoP, you trade in your wealth for abilities that cannot be taken away, and which to some extent resemble what you would be able to do with the money (at least in the important areas, weapon enhancements, armor bonus, save bonus, etc).

But nonetheless, with money you can get items, that grant you the benefit of feats, if you take away the scenario, where your stuff is taken away, and which is the primary benefit of VoP obviously, then it's really quite similar in effect.

And while VoP benefits cannot be taken away, money still has lots of advantages. You can (standard D&D campaign) get pretty much anything with money. Need to fly? Buy a potion. And so on... The VoP stuff is fixed. Yes, it's good! But it better has to, considering what you lose to get it.

It's obviously very useful to some, but the cost of two feats plus giving up all the nice shiny stuff is also pretty harsh.

As a wizard, for example, I don't think I would ever want such harsh restrictions. As a druid it fits perfectly well, of course (almost too good).

Also depends a lot on the campaign... in low resources campaigns, it's probably bordering to broken, as it is balanced for standard PC wealth and item availability. But it's not too harsh to simply ban it in such campaigns.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pyrex]

It does depend a lot on the campaign, but assuming standard wealth levels VoP is good (in a couple cases really good) but in practice I don't think it's broken.

You do get a lot of exalted feats, but most of them are only marginally useful to most characters.

 

[Pax]

Sounds to me like your problem is more with the concept of VoP than anything else. The reason for giving the bonus feats is that the player is giving up so much else; bonus feats are just a compensation. The fact that VoP is itself a feat is really just a matter of mechanics (what other options are there for it to be?).

A class, perhaps. And really, you don't need the "one per two levels" bonus exalted feats; I tested the effects with a 21st level character, with a houseruled-to-be-more-expensive Saint template. And he fared reasonably well against the other characters - with no bonus feats, at all.

Yeah, that's the primary benefit of the VoP, you trade in your wealth for abilities that cannot be taken away, and which to some extent resemble what you would be able to do with the money (at least in the important areas, weapon enhancements, armor bonus, save bonus, etc).

At 20th level, wihtout feats, I guarantee you the VoP's numeric benefits add up to more than it would cost to buy those abilities in magic items. Just the Attribute bonusses alone ...

+8 - this is an Epic item, and it's list price is 640,000gp.
+6 - 36,000gp
+4 - 16,000gp
+2 - 4,000gp

That's 696,000gp right there; a 20th level character has all of 760,000gp. The remainign 64Kgp is not enough to pay for the other benefits, even assuming all items were "slotted" and single-effect - like the +10 Exalted bonus to AC (say, 100Kgp), the +3 deflection bonus (~18Kgp), the +5 exalted strike (~50Kgp), the energy resistances (~144Kgp, as a ring of minor universal energy resistance)), the continual freedom of movement (~112Kgp, by the DMG guidelines), the +2 natural armor (18Kgp), the continual True Seeing (~180Kgp by the DMG guidelines), the resistance bonus to saves (9Kgp), the greater sustenance (11Kgp), the damage reduction (no comparable items to base the pricing on; certainly better than the DR-producing magic armor abilities), the mind shielding (ditto), and the endure elements (probably ~1Kgp). In fact, damage reduction and mind shielding aside, those cost another 643Kgp.

Thus, without the bonus feats, the VoP is worth significantly more than 1.25 million gold pieces.

Each feat is worth an average of 10,000gp. So, taken as early as possible, the eleven resultant feats are worth an average of 110,000gp. We're getting to about 1.5Mgp approximate value, for everything.

And that doesn't take into account the impossibility of taking those benefits away. IMO, adding some sort of "indestructible and unstealable" trait to any magic item should double it's price.

Do you think ONE FEAT should allow someone to effectively QUADRUPLE the benefits they would have gotten, had they KEPT all their money ... ?!? I certainly don't!

in low resources campaigns, it's probably bordering to broken, as it is balanced for standard PC wealth and item availability.

Actually, it's worth twice to four times as much, so I question it's balance based on PC wealth levels, too.

As a wizard, for example, I don't think I would ever want such harsh restrictions. As a druid it fits perfectly well, of course (almost too good).

Any shapeshifting-focussed build benefits GLORIOUSLY from the VoP.