We stopped playing Daggerheart

[djotaku]

I would argue that collaborative storytelling is actually the worst way to play D&D. I've beat my head against the wall for decades trying to make D&D do that.

seems a bit harsh - there are a few actual plays I listen to (not named Critical Role) that use D&D or related systems (Tales of the Valiant, Starfinder, Nimblev2) to tell some pretty great stories. Then again, actual play players are a self-selecting group. Maybe the average TTRPG person or the average TTRPG person who coments on the internet or some other subgroup is more likely to suck at collaborative storytelling with D&D and friends.

It depends on the edition and the playstyle. Collaborative storytelling is not the only or objectively best way to play D&D, no matter how popular it might be at the moment.

Even if we step away from storytelling - if we look at similar system that aren't telling a story, like Dungeon Crawl Classics, don't they usually call the GM/DM a Judge or Referee? Still signifying that it's not you vs players? You just happen to be controlling the enemies because SOMEONE has to. (Until/unless AI can)

 

[Whisper-Kitten]

I would argue that collaborative storytelling is actually the worst way to play D&D. I've beat my head against the wall for decades trying to make D&D do that.

I would have to say that the game itself is collaborative. The Players determine where you go and what you do. No matter how many hooks or direction that, the GM gives, the players determine the story. I think everyone of us has had sessions where the game went off the rails and we had to flow with it. Even in adventure paths where there is in reality a storyline set up for the players to follow.

 

[djotaku]

I would have to say that the game itself is collaborative. The Players determine where you go and what you do. No matter how many hooks or direction that, the GM gives, the players determine the story. I think everyone of us has had sessions where the game went off the rails and we had to flow with it. Even in adventure paths where there is in reality a storyline set up for the players to follow.

obviously there's been a thousand one threads about this here in enworld, on reddit, and on Youtube, but I feel this is the greatest skill to develop as the GM. If you're not having a "muck about" adventure or campaign, how do you navigate player agency VS the rudeness of the players going SO off the rails that there was no point in prepping. I think a great GM can allow for both and I've seen some online analysis of how Brennan Lee Mulligan is a pro at this.

 

[Whisper-Kitten]

obviously there's been a thousand one threads about this here in enworld, on reddit, and on Youtube, but I feel this is the greatest skill to develop as the GM. If you're not having a "muck about" adventure or campaign, how do you navigate player agency VS the rudeness of the players going SO off the rails that there was no point in prepping. I think a great GM can allow for both and I've seen some online analysis of how Brennan Lee Mulligan is a pro at this.

Yes, it was the hardest thing about being a GM for me personally. When I would craft a really cool story that I was sure would lead the characters to do ABC when instead they did LMN. It took me some time to learn to go with the flow when my players went in other direction than the ones I had wanted hoped that they would go.

 

[djotaku]

It took me some time to learn to go with the flow when my players went in other direction than the ones I had wanted hoped that they would go.

then again, there's always this strategy:

Schrodingers Castle, but it's always a Castle. #dungeonsanddragons #dnd #shorts

In Dungeons and Dragons, one of the first tips you will get is that if players go down a path, the quest will be down that path. This is also known as a Quan...

www.youtube.com

 

[Micah Sweet]

seems a bit harsh - there are a few actual plays I listen to (not named Critical Role) that use D&D or related systems (Tales of the Valiant, Starfinder, Nimblev2) to tell some pretty great stories. Then again, actual play players are a self-selecting group. Maybe the average TTRPG person or the average TTRPG person who coments on the internet or some other subgroup is more likely to suck at collaborative storytelling with D&D and friends.


Even if we step away from storytelling - if we look at similar system that aren't telling a story, like Dungeon Crawl Classics, don't they usually call the GM/DM a Judge or Referee? Still signifying that it's not you vs players? You just happen to be controlling the enemies because SOMEONE has to. (Until/unless AI can)

Sure. Not sure I see what you're getting at though. My point is that I'm objecting to the idea that collaborative storytelling is any kind of assumed default.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes, it was the hardest thing about being a GM for me personally. When I would craft a really cool story that I was sure would lead the characters to do ABC when instead they did LMN. It took me some time to learn to go with the flow when my players went in other direction than the ones I had wanted hoped that they would go.

Best to prep a setting IMO, not a plot.

 

[djotaku]

Sure. Not sure I see what you're getting at though. My point is that I'm objecting to the idea that collaborative storytelling is any kind of assumed default.

fair enough. My misread.

 

[Whisper-Kitten]

Best to prep a setting IMO, not a plot.

That can work sometimes, but you always get players that still want a plot to run with. Even if they will do their own thing most of the time. My first game that is pretty much all we did. We were supposed to collect a rod and spent multiple months doing everything but. I still enjoyed having the plotline though, even if we didn't spend a whole lot of time on it. In the beginning of it at least.

 

[Parmandur]

seems a bit harsh - there are a few actual plays I listen to (not named Critical Role) that use D&D or related systems (Tales of the Valiant, Starfinder, Nimblev2) to tell some pretty great stories. Then again, actual play players are a self-selecting group. Maybe the average TTRPG person or the average TTRPG person who coments on the internet or some other subgroup is more likely to suck at collaborative storytelling with D&D and friends.


Even if we step away from storytelling - if we look at similar system that aren't telling a story, like Dungeon Crawl Classics, don't they usually call the GM/DM a Judge or Referee? Still signifying that it's not you vs players? You just happen to be controlling the enemies because SOMEONE has to. (Until/unless AI can)

Heck, that's how my group played 3.x in College, it was all about the joy of discovering a story in play.

D&D's rules really don't get in the way of that in my experience, just channel it into an action and combat heavy story.