D&D 5E (2024) What 2014 settings should get a new 2024 release & what should it get?

[Bravesteel25]

Dragonborn occupy Western Flanaess, since at least the Chainmail minis game in 3E.

Yes, someone else mentioned something similar, half-dragons, right? That's news to me.

There is no rule about who can and cannot be in an adventuring party, and "player characters are exceptional" is a base assumption of the setting.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I think it would be disengenuous to say that a party conisting of a Tabaxi Bard, Dragonborn Sorcerer, Kenku Monk, and Tiefling Fighter would be evocative of Greyhawk and Flanaess in general.

 

[Remathilis]

Yes, you can say any myriad of races were IN the world of Greyhawk, but whether they were intended as common members of adventuring parties is another thing entirely.

And I'm saying that's a factor of the edition the game was written for, not an intrinsic part of the setting. You can make the same exact arguments that dwarves should not be wizards or gnomes paladins in Greyhawk with the exact same logic. Or that sorcerers should exist at all. Greyhawk followed the game conventions of the time. Those conventions have changed. The setting should follow suit.

I think you are being a little of unfair calling my viewpoint revisionist.

It's unfortunately true. The identity of Greyhawk in the 90s was just the older and less thorough kitchen sink setting. The idea of Greyhawk being some carefully curated OSR setting built to perfectly fit the burgeoning OS movement is recontextuling the setting into something it never was (or more aptly, only was because D&D itself leaned in that direction).

You've got multiple sources from throughout Greyhawk's history backing up what I'm saying.

Nothing their specifically forbids options from beyond the PHB, only going as far as to explain the old paradigm of humans in ascension (all classes, unlimited levels), demi humans in decline (level limits, limited options, small populations, few or no major nations) and Humanoids for killing guilt free. Which was true of Faerun at the time too prior to 3e (I remember the return from Evermeet and Thunder Twins used to explain why Faerun had an influx of elves and dwarves after decades of AD&D era populations)

Yes, I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying, or I failed to articulate myself clearly (which is more likely ). I'm not saying that these races can't or don't exist in Greyhawk, but rather the chances of them being PCs are significantly low.

Low =/= unplayable. And it's worth noting most of the humanoids you mentioned are in supplement books anyway. The 5.0 PHB had two additional species (Dragonborn and tieflings) and 5.5 added aasimar, goliath and orcs for the half-orc. Nothing there breaks the setting, and if gnomes went this long without a nation, dragonborn can do the same.

See my previous comments, especially about Living Greyhawk. Existing is different than being forced into the setting in the way Dragonborn were in Faerun for example.

Dragonborn are a good example of why continuity breaks per edition are better than RSEs. Eberron incorporated them far better than Realms did just by saying they were always there, just not in significant numbers.

Yes, these different races can, and in many cases do exist in Flanaess. However, they are not in the majority of adventuring parties and every 7th PC probably isn't a member of one these races and is most likely Human or one of the "Demihuman" races.

But that is YOUR opinion on how adventuring parities should look, not the settings. Humans are the predominant species, but that doesn't mean a kenku can't become an adventurer. It means you aren't going to meet many kenku bartenders and innkeepers. Adventurers are already pariahs from society, it would make more sense it would have more representation from marginalized groups than your local town or maybe kingdom.

Unless we're playing the "Greyhawk is so racist that an orc entering town is enough for a lynch mob" style of play. Then I don't know what to tell you but the setting needs a full restructuring.

I'll point you towards the top of this post for that. I don't think I'm a Grognard for thinking that Greyhawk is a Human-centric setting. But, it's all down to preference right? WotC can move forward and do to Flanaess* what they did to Faerun, but then I fail to see some of the point of Greyhawk and they might as well just stick it into Abeir-Toril somewhere.

If the only thing you see of value about Greyhawk is the fact you can ban a player from being an aarakroca, then I agree. If all the setting features is a ban list, then the setting is too weak to survive.

*I actually really like what WotC has done with Faerun even though I think it steals some of Khorvaire's cosmopolitan thunder.

I feel the Monsters of the Multiverse effect has been widely overblown. The 5.5 Forgotten Realms book isn't teaming with kenku villages and tabaxi nations. Ravenloft doesn't have a single humanoid darklord that isn't human in origin. WotC isn't pushing some hidden agenda, it's just giving players and DMs options beyond the Tolkien Seven based on what else is popular. But it reinforces a lot of bad takes on modern D&D and the notion that OS play is the correct way to play. And Greyhawk has been retroactively made the poster child for that.

 

[abazaba]

nevermind

 

[bedir than]

i don't have any personal attachment to it but i think strixhaven might be an interesting jumping off point for a new setting, rather than just making a new generic 'magic school' for 5.5 to replace it, but expand the world out from strix itself following with the vaguely pseudo-modernistic kind of setting it presents, what would the rest of the world look like in a setting that produced an academy of magic.

MtG did a solid job expanding that lore with interesting tales, unique hooks and reasons to adventure.

The D&D team ignored that

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I think it would be disengenuous to say that a party conisting of a Tabaxi Bard, Dragonborn Sorcerer, Kenku Monk, and Tiefling Fighter would be evocative of Greyhawk and Flanaess in general.

Largely because the setting has been dead for decades. Left it somewhat frozen in amber.

 

[saviirkad]

There's some 2014 settings I'd like them to bring up to 2024, like Spelljammer, but it's probably a fine line they'd have to walk between making a 2024 release that supplements without replacing the 2014 release and can stand alone without requiring the 2014 release.

Personally what I hope to see are new books that follow along the two paths I liked the most among the 2014 releases: more MtG settings that expand upon an underused mechanic like Ravnica's Renown and Theros's Piety, and more focused theme releases like Bigsby's Giants and Fizban's Dragons.

 

[Stormonu]

Yes, someone else mentioned something similar, half-dragons, right? That's news to me.



I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I think it would be disengenuous to say that a party conisting of a Tabaxi Bard, Dragonborn Sorcerer, Kenku Monk, and Tiefling Fighter would be evocative of Greyhawk and Flanaess in general.

Adventurers always tend to be outliers, but I do agree that the "Moss Eisley Cantina" Gang can be jarring. I ask my group when playing to try to limit to one person playing an off-beat race not from the PHB. It doesn't always happen, but it does tend to keep things from going too far astray.

<edit: oh, and it is fully Dragonborn, not just Half-dragons from West Flan>

 

[Bravesteel25]

And I'm saying that's a factor of the edition the game was written for, not an intrinsic part of the setting. You can make the same exact arguments that dwarves should not be wizards or gnomes paladins in Greyhawk with the exact same logic. Or that sorcerers should exist at all. Greyhawk followed the game conventions of the time. Those conventions have changed. The setting should follow suit.


It's unfortunately true. The identity of Greyhawk in the 90s was just the older and less thorough kitchen sink setting. The idea of Greyhawk being some carefully curated OSR setting built to perfectly fit the burgeoning OS movement is recontextuling the setting into something it never was (or more aptly, only was because D&D itself leaned in that direction).

Nothing their specifically forbids options from beyond the PHB, only going as far as to explain the old paradigm of humans in ascension (all classes, unlimited levels), demi humans in decline (level limits, limited options, small populations, few or no major nations) and Humanoids for killing guilt free. Which was true of Faerun at the time too prior to 3e (I remember the return from Evermeet and Thunder Twins used to explain why Faerun had an influx of elves and dwarves after decades of AD&D era populations)

Low =/= unplayable. And it's worth noting most of the humanoids you mentioned are in supplement books anyway. The 5.0 PHB had two additional species (Dragonborn and tieflings) and 5.5 added aasimar, goliath and orcs for the half-orc. Nothing there breaks the setting, and if gnomes went this long without a nation, dragonborn can do the same.

Dragonborn are a good example of why continuity breaks per edition are better than RSEs. Eberron incorporated them far better than Realms did just by saying they were always there, just not in significant numbers.

But that is YOUR opinion on how adventuring parities should look, not the settings. Humans are the predominant species, but that doesn't mean a kenku can't become an adventurer. It means you aren't going to meet many kenku bartenders and innkeepers. Adventurers are already pariahs from society, it would make more sense it would have more representation from marginalized groups than your local town or maybe kingdom.

Unless we're playing the "Greyhawk is so racist that an orc entering town is enough for a lynch mob" style of play. Then I don't know what to tell you but the setting needs a full restructuring.

If the only thing you see of value about Greyhawk is the fact you can ban a player from being an aarakroca, then I agree. If all the setting features is a ban list, then the setting is too weak to survive.


I feel the Monsters of the Multiverse effect has been widely overblown. The 5.5 Forgotten Realms book isn't teaming with kenku villages and tabaxi nations. Ravenloft doesn't have a single humanoid darklord that isn't human in origin. WotC isn't pushing some hidden agenda, it's just giving players and DMs options beyond the Tolkien Seven based on what else is popular. But it reinforces a lot of bad takes on modern D&D and the notion that OS play is the correct way to play. And Greyhawk has been retroactively made the poster child for that.

I don't have much more to add. I still think that demographic makeup, inferred or otherwise, has a part to play in whether an adventuring party feels like it belongs in any particular setting. I had this same stance in my "circus troupe" thread from a while ago. That thread went round and round with the conclusion basically being "do what feels right to you" and I think that applies here as well.

Paul also does make a good point here:

Largely because the setting has been dead for decades. Left it somewhat frozen in amber.

Which isn't something to ignore. I am totally open to a reimagining of Greyhawk, but WotC are going to have to really sell it if they are going to take away some of the original "grognard-ness" of the world. Otherwise, why not just play in Faerun where cosmopolitan aspects exist heavily now, or Khorvaire where it is baked into the setting?

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I'm strongly of the opinion that different settings should throw out a lot of things about their canon when editions change. Especially when in the past they certainly had mistakes.

Like how I think you should have all your powers as a Fey Patron Warlock in Sigil, despite 2e stating that godlike powers can't get past the Lady's ban on the presence of powers in Sigil and that teleportation even if it was 30 feet can't happen in Sigil because the Astral Plane is blocked. That was a short sighted view, because Warlock patrons don't need to physically manifest on the same plane as a Warlock, and the inter-Sigil teleportation ban was clearly unfun and caused all sorts of problems with the rules.

If they're to be played in the current edition, then they should work with how things are in the current edition.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Which isn't something to ignore. I am totally open to a reimagining of Greyhawk, but WotC are going to have to really sell it if they are going to take away some of the original "grognard-ness" of the world.

I don't know much about the setting as it wasn't one that they tried to force everywhere like Faerun, but I always thought the appeal of Oerth was that there were these different nations at odds with each other and all these looming threats out there like Iuz and the Temple of Elemental Evil, where things were just ready to explode and get worse and there wasn't someone looking over your shoulder like FR. All things that don't matter if there's Dragonborn, Goliaths and Sorcerers and Warlocks because it's still the same with them.