What Do You Think of These Encounters?

[Retreater]

I've been sticking to published adventures for my 4E campaign so far until I can get a hang for how to create encounters. After a TPK in the first encounter of last week's adventure, I want to get things back on track with a few interesting encounters that aren't simply pitched battles.

Tell me if these sound fun from a player perspective - or just really annoying.

1) The group is ascending a frozen mountain pass when fierce winds strike. At the beginning of each round, characters must make an easy acrobatics or athletics check or be pulled in the random direction of the wind (set at the beginning of the round). This might pull them off the pass if they fail their save, taking level appropriate falling damage for the perilous category.

A trio of wraiths decide it is the opportune time to strike. Since they are insubstantial, I am ruling they can't be affected by the wind.

2) The party encounters the guardian of the mountain pass. They will have heard legends that he is immortal and unable to be defeated with arms or magic. In game terms, he is a level +2 monster, but he doesn't have hit points. He takes no weapon damage but still can suffer effects and can be forced movement. Thus the group can slow him and run past, push him off the cliff, etc.

The other encounters are with crazed cultists and wolves, so I think they'll be okay.

What do you think of these two?

 

[Unwise]

Nice ideas, a few things spring to mind:

- Make sure that you describe the mountain they are fighting on as having dropps off into a sharp slope with jagged rocks. Unless you want PCs to die in pretty unsatisfying ways avoid falls to the death. By making the fall onto an area that will hurt like hell, but not flat out kill them, you avoid killing players as easily, but keep the fun of avoidin the fall.

- What about wind elementals? Or fey wind sprites? Is there a reason to have wraiths up there in the mountains?

- Mechanically, fights with insubstantial creatures are often pretty long an tedious. Wraiths in particular. They weaken you on a basic attack, so PCs spend most of their time doing 25% of their normal damage. That is not fun for anyone. Got any archers? They will hate a fight in strong winds even more.

- The PCs find a polished stone with random items on it, some of value, some just pretty or fun. A religion/history check tells that this it is a place to make offerings to fey spirits. In celtic folklore you would offer a few pennys to cross stone bridges, or mountain passes so as not to offend the local fey. If the players succeed in a diplomacy/religion/nature check, then they have passified the otherwise excitable fey and the encounter with the wind sprites is less deadly.

- If the PCs do really well appeasing the mountain spirits, then what about giving them a fight against cultists etc on the mountain side, where the winds affect the bad guys heaps, but don't worry them too much. It can be fun for PCs to feel they have done something clever that lets them take on overwhelming odds.

- PCs love setting ambushes on people. They love wiping out a group of bad guys before they can react. Suprise rounds are a crowd favourite. I suggest a skill challenge to get up the mountain (mountaineering is hard work) if they do badly, they lose healing surges, very badly they are ambushed. Do well and they get to pick an ambush spot on the enemy. So the players get a suprise round and their enemy are in a bad spot, like near a cliff edge.


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- For the invicible guardian, search for Colosssus of Laarn. It is an article on the D&D site that gives rules for fighting an 'unbeatable' golem. It could be used done with very little tweaking.

- GMs overuse "unbeatable" so don't expect your players to believe you. Make it clear that you are not writing down any damage at all that they do.

- If you are allowing them to run past without fighting or disabling it long term, to stop the encounter being over in all of two rounds, either use a map like in the article above, or have a mountain pass with amazingly strong winds pushing against the players. Every square towards the way they want to go is difficult terrain. Movement the other way costs half (but make a roll or fall).

- What about if the guardian is unbeatable, but for every X damage they do to him he is mildly distracted so the wind dies down. (He controls it) It is a very hard Athletics/Endurance each turn to make any forward progress. For each hit of X damage though, the DC drops by 5.

- If the mountian spirits like the PCs they might help, or give advice. If they don't then adding in a couple of killable enemies (even minions) could be fun. Maybe the big guys summons minion wind sprites when he summons the wind.

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- Yetis are awesome. That is all.

- Consider the types of terrain you want to use, some ideas include:

- Snowing, every square past 5 has concealment, past 10 total concealment
- Thin ice, pcn/acrobatics/dungeneering/nature to know which squares can be trusted. I would also add in a 1/8 chance of it just breaking anyway. 1/4 for a large creature. Particular cool if you give them an opportunity to set an ambush, or put them up against a really hard fight, but they know the ice is there and the enemy does not.
- Snow, difficult terrain for small characters, but they get concealment
- Heavy snow, difficult terrain
- Comically Slippery ice. If you use more than 2 of your speed, you cannot change direction and must use all your speed. Funniest near thin ice or falls. Note this may make a charge provoke opportunity as they run past the enemy accidently.
- Slush, use more than 2 speed and make a roll or fall prone.

 

[Quickleaf]

Wow, [MENTION=98008]Unwise[/MENTION] that's awesome advice!

I've been sticking to published adventures for my 4E campaign so far until I can get a hang for how to create encounters. After a TPK in the first encounter of last week's adventure, I want to get things back on track with a few interesting encounters that aren't simply pitched battles.

What's the story behind your TPK? Was it a homemade encounter?

Atrio of wraiths decide it is the opportune time to strike. Since they are insubstantial, I am ruling they can't be affected by the wind.

If you decide on wraiths I would rework their stat blocks to get rid of insubstantial and possibly weakened. And I would have the wraiths be GREATLY effected by winds...but be able to ride them to their advantage.

Replace insubstanial with no damage on a miss & a minimum damage threshold (1/4 or 1/5 HP). When an attack deals less than this threshold, the wraith vanishes into the whirling snow and is removed from play until the start of it's next turn when it reappears within its speed from it's original position. A side effect of this is that it deters opportunity attacks.

Replace weakened with an ability to make the PC go out of phase with the world as the wraith tries to suck them into the fierce snowy winds. While out of phase the PC can't benefit from allies powers and is subject to being removed from play with the wraith as above, and to moving with the wraith as below.

When a wraith is pushed by winds, it slide-flies up to it's speed in that direction. The danger here is that it can drag an out of phase PCs off the cliffs, or onto a ledge to separate the party.

EDIT: If youve seen the last Harry Potter movie think the scene where Harry grabs Voldemort and jumps off the tower and the two are fighting amidst a blur of flying black smoke.

 

[Rechan]

While I think it'd be fine if the PCs fought foes that the winds didn't effect, I agree with everyone that Wraiths are a bad bet. Insubstantial is fine, but insubstantial + regeneration + weakening isn't.

If you want undead, then the undead likely died from the cold, starvation, or the exact thing the PCs are dealing with - falling off the edge. The ghosts should then have powers that reflect that - ongoing damage that reflects starvation, or an aura of cold, etc.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Tweaking a wraith doesn't sound like a bad option. Instead of weakened have it inflict slowed. That plus the wind will be a fairly interesting tactical problem. A slowed PC will be too slow to keep from being pushed towards a nasty fall, but he'll still inflict full (half for insubstantial) damage. Call it "numbing cold".

The 'please the spirits' SC sounds like an interesting concept. You could have that and what it does is let the PCs ignore the wind sometimes. Maybe if they spend their minor action or I dunno, something. Or maybe a character can sacrifice an HS to be immune to the wind for the rest of the fight. That gives them a choice, but one with a cost. Pass the SC and you get that ability.

A straight up survival SC sounds good too. Endurance, etc physical skills and some knowledge and even Insight to pep people up. Fail and the party is drained an SC or two, pass and they get to the top without a problem.

The unbeatable guy could be pretty fun. Collosus of Larn isn't a bad place to start for sure.

 

[Randomthoughts]

1) The group is ascending a frozen mountain pass when fierce winds strike. At the beginning of each round, characters must make an easy acrobatics or athletics check or be pulled in the random direction of the wind (set at the beginning of the round). This might pull them off the pass if they fail their save, taking level appropriate falling damage for the perilous category.

A trio of wraiths decide it is the opportune time to strike. Since they are insubstantial, I am ruling they can't be affected by the wind.

I've looked up Wraith on the Compendium, a L5 Lurker. For powers, I see insubstantial but not regen or weaken. Am I missing something?

Assuming this is the correct Wraith stats, does the party have anyone who does radiant or force damage? Or turn undead? I like knowing these things to gauge how difficult the encounter will be.

Anyway, here's my gut reaction using a lurker whose main attack is Shadowtouch (a fairly straightforward melee attack, but I don't see that it weakens) and goes insubstantial, phases, turns invisible (shadowglide), teleports (shadowglide) and creates other wraiths (more below):

* I like using Lurkers "Predator-style" meaning one at a time b/c more loses their effect IMO. But if the PCs are powerful or have force/radiant powers, more may be needed. So I'd suggest an Elite (I avoid Solos except for really key encounters).

* It makes sense that a Lurker attacks a party when it is vulnerable i.e., a percarious part of the mountain pass, howling winds threatening to throw them off. I like that idea.

* I would make the pass narrow (not too narrow but not too wide) and I would make the winds blow them in one direction - off the cliff, or, have the wind mainly blow them off the cliff. I would also litter the pass with boulders or ice structures. They serve two purposes: (1) PCs can hold on to them, to prevent falling off, but at a cost of (say) a Move action. (2) Since the Wraith can phase, it would be cool for it to run through these things with impunity. I'd also use Unwise's ideas of terrain (but don't go overboard).

* If it fits the story, I'd add a few NPCs in the party (e.g., porters) wearing red tunics . This is important. You see, the Wraith can create new Wraiths if he kills them (Spawn Wraith). So, the difficulty of the encounter seems easy at first - it's only one Wraith - but it will eventually dawn on the PCs that more Wraiths will be created. That creates a sense of urgency.

You can wrap some story around this. Maybe the Wraith died by falling off. So, maybe the Wraith attacks by trying to throw PCs off the cliff (as described by Quickleaf). This will spawn more Wraiths. How easy it will be to throw someone off the cliff will depend on the narrowness of the pass.

Ok, with the scene set, imagine:

* The party reaches a precarious part of the pass. Party makes preparation to "cross" - perhaps tying people together (depends on the narrowness of the pass).

* As the party crosses the pass, howling winds threaten to push them off. Maybe a porter actually does fall off, to underscore the danger.

* At the right time (maybe 2-3 round), Wraith attacks commando style. The attack could come from the front, back or middle. Since it could phase, become invisible and teleport along that pass, NO ONE IS SAFE. That's the feeling I'd try to convey. Meanwhile, the party is pushed to the edge (or beyond) by the winds. What if the party actually decided to lash themselves together?

* In time, more Wraiths could be created as porters (and perhaps PCs) die. How often and fast this occurs depends on the description of the Spawn Wraith power (and how easy/hard you want to make it).

* Fail-safe: Sometimes I build these in encounters and sometimes not. If you party doesnt have someone who uses force/radiant attacks or turn undead, you may want to place some story element to help them. Say the Wraith died by being pushed off. Any PC or NPC pushed off may actually have survived the fall, and they discover some personal item's of the Wraiths that could be used to do radiant damage to it (which in turn shuts off a lot of its powers).

 

[Storminator]

If you tie the wraiths to the mountain pass as those that died there, consider using Trap Haunts instead. There's nothing awesome about the stat block, but the idea is perfect. The undead are trying to get you to die exactly how they did. And getting dominated on an icy windy mountain pass ought to be pretty terrifying.

PS

 

[Randomthoughts]

If you tie the wraiths to the mountain pass as those that died there, consider using Trap Haunts instead.

Wow! That's a great idea. Looking at it now (L8 Lurker), I'd combine a bit of Wraith with the Trap Haunt.

I'd start with the Trap Haunt stats (adjusting for level of course or reducing to equal con but making it Elite). But I do like Wraith's shadowglide (the invisible and teleport) but not usable when he's dominating someone.

It's Ghostly Possession power is perfect. Imagine, the party is struggling through the pass. A porter or two has already been blown off the edge. Suddenly, a porter (if the GM wants to be mean, a PC!), eyes blazing an eldritch green, launches himself off the cliff! (Would that require a save?)

Hmm, could be pretty dangerous for PCs but certainly fun. I'd give PCs more agency (saves, maybe embed a skill challenge) to avoid being dominated then tossed off. OTOH, the dominated person might not kill himself, but rather will push people off. A lot less lethal.

But this could make the encounter pretty complicated. For example, the GM would have to know the grab rules (and sliding them over the cliff) down cold I'd think.

Something else you have to keep in mind, then, is the Trap Haunt's Trapbound disadvantage. So, PCs could escape the "encounter" by running outside the boundaries of the "trap". Not a bad fail safe. OTOH, I'd litter the pass with some barriers so it's not too easy to run away.

On second thought, I could go either way. Running a Wraith vs. Trap Haunt will create different feels for the encounter. I'd still go with the (modified) Trap Haunt, but it's a tough call.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I've been sticking to published adventures for my 4E campaign so far until I can get a hang for how to create encounters. After a TPK in the first encounter of last week's adventure, I want to get things back on track with a few interesting encounters that aren't simply pitched battles.

Tell me if these sound fun from a player perspective - or just really annoying.

1) The group is ascending a frozen mountain pass when fierce winds strike. At the beginning of each round, characters must make an easy acrobatics or athletics check or be pulled in the random direction of the wind (set at the beginning of the round). This might pull them off the pass if they fail their save, taking level appropriate falling damage for the perilous category.

Please note that I'm not suggesting you can't use "unbalanced" encounters, but IMO, said hazard needs a level, which can be much lower or much higher than the PCs' level. That will determine the falling damage (which will in turn determine how fall the PC falls down a crevasse before they hit snow). That will also determine how difficult it is to climb out of the crevasse, in terms of distance, and perhaps skill DCs.

When a PC gets tossed off a precipice, they can make an instant saving throw to "hang on". This is a very good time to have a PC who can instantly boost saving throws!

The saving throw rule might apply to wraiths anyway. They may be immune to the wind, but various effects (like Turn Undead!) can force them to move, possibly shoving them right off a cliff. Does a wraith suffer falling damage? If they take radiant damage, I think they stop being insubstantial, making Turn Undead really good in this situation.

A trio of wraiths decide it is the opportune time to strike. Since they are insubstantial, I am ruling they can't be affected by the wind.

Good. A good encounter needs not just monsters, but interesting terrain and/or hazards. IMO, the best traps/hazards don't affect the enemy (eg flame blast traps in an encounter with fire immune enemies).

2) The party encounters the guardian of the mountain pass. They will have heard legends that he is immortal and unable to be defeated with arms or magic. In game terms, he is a level +2 monster, but he doesn't have hit points. He takes no weapon damage but still can suffer effects and can be forced movement. Thus the group can slow him and run past, push him off the cliff, etc.

You've created an unusual skill challenge there, I would think. IMO, PCs should be allowed to make skill checks before the encounter, in order to learn more about the enemy.

Once the encounter starts, with skill checks (Arcana, Religion, maybe Nature or even Dungeoneering, depending on monster type) the PCs could gain bonuses to their attack rolls. Yes, they're not aiming to do damage, but an effect like Thunderwave that can push an enemy off a cliff can still benefit from an attack bonus. Non-casting PCs could perhaps make Athletics checks (or Insight, to see if he's got a weak knee or something) to gain bonuses on bull rush, Tide of Iron/Hammer Hands, etc.

In order to keep players happy, especially if they've got weak control, perhaps the skill challenge could take away his invincibility after a point. You could use scattered plot coupons (orbs, altars, whatever) that can be dealt with via skill checks, perhaps each with a different one (Nature for altar, Arcana for orb, etc) and disabling all the plot coupons could render the monster "vincible". Scattering these coupons makes things harder, as PCs might find themselves being blown away by the wind (if it's still there) or the monster might actively try to keep them away from these coupons. After disabling the coupons, the monster might surrender rather than fight, and of course repair them after the PCs leave.

I don't think I explained these plot coupons well. There's an encounter on the WotC site involving a demilich that has "plot coupons" like this, although the demilich isn't actually invincible.

 

[Retreater]

Thanks for the advice all. Sorry I've been out for a couple of days due to a bad cold.

Anyway, the adventure we were playing was Cairn of the Winter King. They perished in the first room of the dungeon. In hindsight, they were a little underpowered (they were right on the cusp of the 4th level recommended for the adventure - and the party's slayer had to leave before the encounter). A combination of the underpowered, great rolls for me, bad rolls for them, and some poor strategy added up to TPK. In fairness, I gave them the option to have their characters "wake up" as prisoners there, but the players all wanted to start the module again with new characters.