What Needs Doing?

[Pour]

This isn't a lament or anything, I'm asking for a serious list from 4e gamers on what they need from WotC or another source to best service the edition, perhaps 'complete' it, or allow for its fans to enjoy it years to come.

I've seen on the Rule of Three the idea of mechanically fixing/helping the runepriest, seeker, and artificer. My confidence that will happen is pretty low after the response, besides a few more options here and there.

There's a thread active now speaking toward a DMG3: Epic Tier. This is another big area I think needs guidance and addressing.

I'm going to throw in a new setting aimed to take advantage of unique 4e assumptions that isn't PoLand. Something fans could rally and create in.

What else do you need? This is mostly asked with a mind to refer fan designers toward in servicing these needs, and also to make 4thers aware of portions of the game still in need.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Honestly? You know I love 4e as much as you, but I think it could use an overhaul. I'd love to see it cleaned up and polished a bit more. Consolidate classes, and especially feats and powers. Toss out or upgrade bad or trap options, eliminate redundancy, organize things better by power source and keyword, etc.

I will agree that some of the underserviced classes need help, but I think the best way to provide that help is to merge them into other, similar classes. Then, they get what they need, and keep bloat to a minimum.

DMG3 for Epic Tier should definitely have happened. The fact that it hasn't already means that it likely won't, but I'd like to be surprised.

My biggest "worry" about the autumn days of 4e is actually that come the next iteration of D&D its playstyle won't be well represented or accounted for. Given the negativity expressed toward it (by a very vocal minority*), it would be pretty easy for WotC to write it off, while only paying lip-service to the things that make 4e great to us.

* - by this remark, I'm suggesting that the most vocal complainers make up only a fraction of the folks who do not play 4e in favour of other editions. I'd like to think that most of those who do, and aren't interested, simply don't care. I know this is probably true of the AD&D / OD&D / BECMI / OSR crowds.

 

[Truename]

I've seen on the Rule of Three the idea of mechanically fixing/helping the runepriest, seeker, and artificer. My confidence that will happen is pretty low after the response, besides a few more options here and there.

At the risk of derailing the thread, can you explain what's wrong with the artificer? I have a player using one now (level 13) wielding a wand and a hand crossbow. We're using inherent bonuses, and I did houserule a free Implement Expertise feat after he picked up Crossbow Expertise.

It seems to be working fine in my game, but I've heard people complain about the artificer before and I want to keep an eye out for trouble.

 

[Pour]

Honestly? You know I love 4e as much as you, but I think it could use an overhaul. I'd love to see it cleaned up and polished a bit more. Consolidate classes, and especially feats and powers. Toss out or upgrade bad or trap options, eliminate redundancy, organize things better by power source and keyword, etc.

I will agree that some of the underserviced classes need help, but I think the best way to provide that help is to merge them into other, similar classes. Then, they get what they need, and keep bloat to a minimum.

DMG3 for Epic Tier should definitely have happened. The fact that it hasn't already means that it likely won't, but I'd like to be surprised.

My biggest "worry" about the autumn days of 4e is actually that come the next iteration of D&D its playstyle won't be well represented or accounted for. Given the negativity expressed toward it (by a very vocal minority*), it would be pretty easy for WotC to write it off, while only paying lip-service to the things that make 4e great to us.

* - by this remark, I'm suggesting that the most vocal complainers make up only a fraction of the folks who do not play 4e in favour of other editions. I'd like to think that most of those who do, and aren't interested, simply don't care. I know this is probably true of the AD&D / OD&D / BECMI / OSR crowds.

Largely my own concerns, my friend. And given the restrictions of the GSL, no one of 'professional' calibur is going to give 4e the facelift it could use. That, in my mind, solidifies the need for a concerted fan base to make the attempt- sadly without chance for profit (even to sustain costs of art or printing or anything beyond donations). It's totally possible, though I might just sound like the lone, crazy guy.

I'm hoping this modular Everything Edition pans out for 4thers, but I just can't picture something that has the best of all editions coded and doesn't force any one camp to compromise. At that point, why not just stick to my edition of choice. Or continue to work/evolve/improve it as you mentioned.

Unfortunately, we 4thers don't have a Paizo to do that, so it's up to us, the community.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Largely my own concerns, my friend. And given the restrictions of the GSL, no one of 'professional' calibur is going to give 4e the facelift it could use. That, in my mind, solidifies the need for a concerted fan base to make the attempt- sadly without chance for profit (even to sustain costs of art or printing or anything beyond donations). It's totally possible, though I might just sound like the lone, crazy guy.

The thing is, even if some fans got together to put together a cleaned up 4e, under the harsh terms of the GSL, as soon as the 'movement' started to gather steam, WotC would pull the plug and shut it down. I'd love to see it though if D&D-next doesn't deliver.

I'm hoping this modular Everything Edition pans out for 4thers, but I just can't picture something that has the best of all editions coded and doesn't force any one camp to compromise. At that point, why not just stick to my edition of choice. Or continue to work/evolve/improve it as you mentioned.

I can see it working. I just don't know that it will be built that way. I can hope; I am optimistic. And let's face it - even in its current state, 4e is a pretty solid system, and the classic builder is jailbroken and still updated, and can be programmed for houserules (albeit with some knowledge of the XML).

Unfortunately, we 4thers don't have a Paizo to do that, so it's up to us, the community.

Indeed. If it comes to that, I'm in. I hope it doesn't.

 

[Roland55]

Honestly? You know I love 4e as much as you, but I think it could use an overhaul. I'd love to see it cleaned up and polished a bit more. Consolidate classes, and especially feats and powers. Toss out or upgrade bad or trap options, eliminate redundancy, organize things better by power source and keyword, etc.

I will agree that some of the underserviced classes need help, but I think the best way to provide that help is to merge them into other, similar classes. Then, they get what they need, and keep bloat to a minimum.

DMG3 for Epic Tier should definitely have happened. The fact that it hasn't already means that it likely won't, but I'd like to be surprised.

My biggest "worry" about the autumn days of 4e is actually that come the next iteration of D&D its playstyle won't be well represented or accounted for. Given the negativity expressed toward it (by a very vocal minority*), it would be pretty easy for WotC to write it off, while only paying lip-service to the things that make 4e great to us.

* - by this remark, I'm suggesting that the most vocal complainers make up only a fraction of the folks who do not play 4e in favour of other editions. I'd like to think that most of those who do, and aren't interested, simply don't care. I know this is probably true of the AD&D / OD&D / BECMI / OSR crowds.

Despite a very great deal of effort, I couldn't make myself "like" 4e -- as in make it my new, favorite game. The first time this ever happened to me since D&D began.

But I am certainly no hater. I'm happy that 4e has so many vocal supporters, so many gamers that enjoy it.

I will say this. As a long-time gamer, I don't see how 5e could be considered a true success ... according to the vision Mr. Mearls just laid out ... if it "just pa[ys] lip service to the things that make 4e great to [you]."

I'd like to walk into a gaming group again, someday soon, where the after-effects of the 3e/4e "Edition War" were invisible, inaudible, and just ... gone.

 

[Rechan]

What do I want or what do I need?

I think Epic support is needed, just for those people. Maybe "Apprentice levels" for some.

But I don't need anything (well, aside from a group ). And anything that the community puts together, I have to question how far it'll reach, how many people will use it, etc.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

But I don't need anything (well, aside from a group ).

If you didn't live 1000 miles away, I'd have you in my weekly group.

And anything that the community puts together, I have to question how far it'll reach, how many people will use it, etc.

Exactly. This is something I was getting at earlier. If it did reach a point where it were widespread and/or well-known, Hasborg lawyers would be clamping down faster than you could say "cease & desist." As good as the SRD and OGL were for 3.x when it was current, and good though it may be for the fans, it really came back to bite WotC in the ass. The GSL ensures that they will never have to worry about that with 4e, unless someone has the power and vision to change 4e's license to OGL or open up the GSL to allow for 3PP support once it's "out of warranty."

 

[Rechan]

If you didn't live 1000 miles away, I'd have you in my weekly group.

Damn you, geography!

There are a lot of things I want. But the only stuff that I likely could use would be DM stuff. For instance: If I, as a player, want to use a community-made class, will a DM let me?

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Damn you, geography!

There are a lot of things I want. But the only stuff that I likely could use would be DM stuff. For instance: If I, as a player, want to use a community-made class, will a DM let me?

That's the real trick, isn't it? I've known DMs that are extreme in either direction on that, and some in the middle. All depends on the group, IME.