What the **** is WotC thinking?

[Hardhead]

What the ****?!?

I just read the new WotC revision spotlight.

It includes the Manyshot feat

Manyshot [General]

You can fire multiple arrows as a single attack against a nearby target.

Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).

For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total of -6 on the third arrow and -8 on the fourth).

Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each arrow fired.

Special: Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack damage) only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.

A fighter may select Manyshot as one of his fighter bonus feats.

All I have to say is:

[size=+2]What in the WORLD are they thinking?[/size]

Going with bows is already the most powerful build! You can do the math, and they clearly come out on top! That's not how it should be! Archers should deal less damage than melee characters in exchange for being able to do it at a distance.

But nooooooooooo.

They deal more as it stands right now. I still had enough trust in WotC to believe they'd realize that, and trim archers back in 3e, like Monte Cook is doing in Arcana Unearthed, or like Sean K. Reynolds recommends on his website.

But no! Have they let go of all of the people with any sense of game balance in their layoffs?

Hey, I got an idea! Instead of making them weaker to bring them into melee character range, let's make 'em even more powerful! Hey! That's a good idea! Let's let them make four attacks at about the same average penalty as a full-round attack would have taken! Instead of four attacks being attack/attack-5/attack-10/attack-15, let's give 'em all four at attack-8! Yeah, that's a good idea! And let's let them take a move action in the same round! No need to take a full-round action.

Are they incapable of math over there or something? Have they not run the numbers and determined that Archers already deal too much damage? Have they not noticed that most of the powergamers already use archers?

All I can say is, there better be some other rules to help offset this. At least end arrow/bow stacking of enhancement bonuses. Hopefully get rid of bracers of archery as well (or add bracers of melee to give melee characters extra footing, but I'd prefer total removal).

I'm worried, especially considering other recent balance snafus, like the half-Ogre. Are they asleep at the wheel?

 

[Terraism]

Sometimes it's nice to:
1) Calm down before you post something.
2) Look and see if there's any threads on the subject already. http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42257.
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42258

[Edit] That came off a little more abrasive than I meant to. I apologize.

 

[Mercule]

Dunno. My experience is that archers pretty much blow. No one in my group ever intensionally plays archers. Missle fire is what the people who aren't pushed to the front line do while they're waiting for combat to end.

That aside, the image of an archer firing two (or more) arrows from the string at once is something of a heroic staple in high fantasy. I say hurrah for WotC for adding the feat.

 

[Nightfall]

Sometimes it's nice to:
1) Calm down before you post something.
2) Look and see if there's any threads on the subject already. http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42257.

[Edit] That came off a little more abrasive than I meant to. I apologize.

I don't see why you'd have to apologise. I mean from what I've seen you're just offer constructive criticisms.

And didn't they already HAVE Manyshot feat? Seems to me no one complained when they used it in Masters of the Wild...

 

[Terraism]

I don't see why you'd have to apologise. I mean from what I've seen you're just offer constructive criticisms.

That was the intent, but reading it back, I felt like I was being rude about it, which wasn't the intent.

 

[Nightfall]

People can read what ever they want into a sentence Terr. That's the bane and blessing of dealing with people on message boards.

 

[Kilmore]

The problem with archers is that they get tore up if the melee gang gets up on them, with the Attacks of Opportunity on opponents with ranged weapons. Happens a lot in dungeons.

And I'm sure the French knights at Agincourt would have disagreed with your dismal assessment of the bows' potential. If you could have found one alive.

 

[Dark Jezter]

I'll admit that my first thought was "Oh no, ANOTHER great archery feat? When will melee fighters get a boon?" but then I realized that we don't know what other feats WotC are planning on including in the 3.5E rules.

So, melee fans, keep your fingers crossed for some really great combat feats. Personally, I'd like to see some really tough melee combat feats that require a BAB of +12 or higher to use.

 

[Hardhead]

Dunno. My experience is that archers pretty much blow.

For your comparison.

Two 16th level characters. Their highest stat is 24 through magic items, spells, or whathave you. They at least have an 18 in their secondary.

Mr. Archer uses a longbow.

Mr. Melee uses a Greatsword.

Both have a BAB of +15/+10/+5.

Both get Greater Magic Weapon cast on their weapons every day by the party cleric.

Attacks:

Mr. Melee's full-round attacks are +28/+23/+18 (+15 BAB, +7 STR, +5 Weapon Enhancement, +1 Weapon Focus).

Mr. Archer's full-round attacks are +34/+34/+29/+24 (+15 BAB, +7 DEX, +5 Weapon Enhancement, +5 Arrow Enhancement, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Point Blank Shot, +2 Bracers of Archery, -2 Rapid Shot)

Mr. Melee deals an average damage of 24 with each hit (2d6, +10 STR, +2 Weapon Specialization, +5 Weapon Enhancement).

Mr. Archer deals an average damage of 22.5 with each hit (1d8, +4 STR, +5 weapon enhancement, +5 arrow enhancement, +2 Weapon Specialization, +1 Point Blank Shot, +1 Bracers of Archery).


I think the winner is clear. Mr. Archer has a massively higher attack bonus, and only deals 1.5 less damage per hit. But, he gets one additonal attack, so his average damage per round is much higher. And, he can preform a full-round attack each and every round. Every time Mr. Melee fells an opponent, he has to move into position to hit another, letting him only take one attack that round. This usually happens at the begining of combat too. Mr. Archer has not such problems, and if he fells an opponent, can then procede to switch to another in the middle of his full-round action.

 

[drowdude]

And didn't they already HAVE Manyshot feat? Seems to me no one complained when they used it in Masters of the Wild...

Minor nit to pick here.... Manyshot originally appeared in the ELH, and isnt in Masters of the Wild.


Anyways... Manyshot is a nifty feat, but I dont think it seriously affects game balance at all... at least not with the errata (which is included in the description above) in force.