When do power "effects" occur

[scottchiefbaker]

My wizard has cloud of daggers which has a "hit" and an "effect". Do the daggers form the cloud in the square regardless of whether it hits, or ONLY if the attack hits. Also, can I target an empty square, say in a narrow hallway, with CoD just to make the daggers appear so monsters moving through it will take damage?

We noticed that the "effect" for cloud of daggers is lower/after the text for hit. On my flaming sphere power the "effect" of creating the sphere occurs before/above the "hit" in the text. Does the placement of the wording make a difference?

Specifically I rolled a 1 and missed my "hit" with cloud of daggers. I argued that the cloud still formed and still dealt 3 damage on the start of the monsters turn.

 

[UltimaGabe]

An effect always happens whether the power hits or not. (Hit has its own line, usually, and if there are effects specifically on a miss, those have their own line too.)

As far as WHEN the Effect happens (that is, whether it happens before or after the hit/miss), that depends on how the power is written. If I recall, you always run the power in order of how it's written. So if the Effect line is first, followed by the Hit line, the effect happens before you roll to see if you hit or miss. If, however, it comes afterwards, then you roll the attack, and after that's resolved, you apply the effect.

 

[UltimaGabe]

And, I'll be a bit more specific to your questions.

The damaging cloud of daggers occurs whether you hit or not. Therefore, Cloud of Daggers is great for taking out minions (as it doesn't matter if you hit or miss, the automatic damage will kill them on their turn unless they're somehow moved out of that square). And yes, because it is an area (albeit a small one), you can place the cloud in an unoccupied square so as to discourage enemies from moving through that square. Keep in mind, of course, that the square damages allies too, though.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

PHB2 has the most up-to-date rules on how to read a power, which will answer these kinds of questions.

Effects happen at the point in the power description where they are placed. In the case of CoD it doesn't really matter. If an effect is dependent on a hit then it is indented below the hit line. This is not the case for CoD, so the effect happens regardless of whether you hit or not. This means that a target of CoD will ALWAYS take at least 1 point of damage, even if you miss it.

Since the attack type of CoD is 'area' that means it doesn't have to be targeted on a specific creature, you can simply cast it in a square. In that case the power will simply create an effect which lingers and could damage anyone entering it.

 

[Zaran]

Daily Martial, Reliable, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons.
Primary Target: One creature
Primary Attack: Strength vs. AC (main weapon)
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage. Until the end of your next turn, the primary target cannot gain combat advantage from flanking you.
Effect: Make a secondary attack.
Secondary Target: One creature other than the primary target
Secondary Attack: Strength vs. AC (off-hand weapon)
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage. Until the end of your next turn, the secondary target cannot gain combat advantage from flanking you.

Ok this power is Reliable. Do I get to reuse the power even if I hit with the effect?

 

[Mort_Q]

Ok this power is Reliable. Do I get to reuse the power even if I hit with the effect?

If you miss every target you don’t expend the use of the power.

In this case, the effect gives you a secondary attack, which has a target. If you hit with the secondary attack, you've hit a target, and the power is expended.

 

[DracoSuave]

If you miss every target you don’t expend the use of the power.

In this case, the effect gives you a secondary attack, which has a target. If you hit with the secondary attack, you've hit a target, and the power is expended.

This.

Any hits cause the effect to be consumed. It was formerly 'not hit every target' but that allowed you to 'not hit' invisible 'targets' that don't even exist, but you 'suspect' do. With some powers, that allowed for exploit.

Now, you must actually -miss- all targets. Targets using an interrupt to get out of dodge could potentially force the expenditure of the power in a strict reading of the rules. As for whether that's a dick move or not for the DM, that could go both ways. I'd not rule this way simply because monsters have no reliable powers, so the PCs can't use the tactic as monsters could; that's not really fair tactics.