When PCs are outmatched

[Cheiromancer]

There's been some discussion on the boards about Horror campaigns, and one common theme is that there are enemies that the PCs cannot face directly. I'm not sure how best to implement this.

In standard play the monsters are more or less stationary (though they might be wandering encounters) and they fight the PCs until one side is defeated. The PCs just go looking for them. But when the situation is reversed, and the monsters are looking for the PCs and the PCs will be the ones who die if the fight is to the death, how do you give the PCs a realistic chance of being evasive without making it automatic?

And in a standard campaign the PCs encounter low level minions early on, and eventually gain enough power to tackle the BBEG. The stereotype is them working through a dungeon level by level, gaining levels and magic items until they reach the boss monster at the end. Sometimes the boss monster escapes- sometimes the party might have to make a strategic withdrawal. But usually it fits this pattern.

But what if many of the monsters have a CR too high for the party? How do you ensure that a TPK doesn't always ensue when this kind of encounter happens? How do you help the party know when to run, so they don't stumble into a TPK?

The obvious answer is that the party has to learn when to hide or run. But the game doesn't really make this practical. After all, the hide/spot rules don't really work for groups. Somebody in the monster's group is going to roll a spot/listen check that is higher than someone's hide/move silently check in the PCs group. Especially since a lot of monsters have max ranks in spot/listen and special abilities like scent or blindsense. Unless I've been playing it wrong, it is basically impossible for the PCs to hide from the mosnters.

And as for running, well, movement rates usually favor the monsters. I mean, sure, the party might have a monk or a ranger/barbarian with longstrider, but it will also have a heavily armored dwarf. Or a halfling or gnome. So I don't really see how running away will work.

And if the PCs can't run, can't hide and can't fight- well, they are going to die. Which can be fun for the DM, but gets wearisome for the players after awhile.

Clearly a different style of play is required both for DMs and for PCs when many enemies will be far beyond the PCs capabilities to defeat directly, but I don't really know how to shift gears into that style of play.

Anyone got some pointers?

 

[Funeris]

Well, I've found that sometimes it pays for the DM to have a voice in a party. Often, it occurs through an NPC picked up by the players. Just last session, they turned to the NPC (this one is a sorc native to the lands they've arrived in) and questioned him thoroughly on his opinions about what they were planning. Of course, I couldn't tell them what was going to happen...but I could say that this NPC felt a bit overwhelmed and that perhaps a fight (read as: slaughter of the PCs) wasn't necessarily the greatest good. Maybe diplomacy was needed.

But an additional character doesn't always work (especially with large groups...I'm lucky there with a group smaller than the traditional four).

If you're focusing on a Horror themed campaign, I think its not just about X number of Monsters of type Y...now feel overwhelmed. If you craft the description of the area well..."The rough stone floor is thick with putrid blood that seems to be flowing ever so slowly toward the end of the hallway. The torchieres mounted along the walls, black iron, cast a pallid and flickering light. The illumination dances morbidly across faces--detached heads from some foul beasts: tentacles hand limply, swaying in an imaginary breeze or dancing to the rhythm of the light...their eyes are yellow and dull, devoid of life..."...A brief description...but any creature that has managed to collect a hallway full of illithid heads probably isn't to be faced by a party of say...2nd level characters.

And while illithids might be a metagame piece of info...the fact that their characters have never met such a beast should be a decent warning.

I guess what I'm saying is that Horror is in the details. As long as you can slip enough subtle clues and descriptions out there...your players should be well prepared to flee or whatnot.

Of course, if you have that dwarven fighter in heavy armor...I don't know how to help

~Fune

 

[ForceUser]

But when the situation is reversed, and the monsters are looking for the PCs and the PCs will be the ones who die if the fight is to the death, how do you give the PCs a realistic chance of being evasive without making it automatic?

I just don't put players in those situations. If they do face an overwhelmingly superior foe, I make sure that it's a role-play encounter and that the bad guy isn't planning on fighting. There are plenty of ways to rationalize this. Perhaps the BBEG doesn't consider them important enough to waste energy killing. Perhaps he's baiting them because he wants to goad them into some sort of action. Perhaps he simply swung by to gloat.

Even if the BBEG isn't aware of who the PCs are or has no qualms about killing them offhandedly, it is still your responsibility to ensure that the PCs have an opportunity to escape. Let me give you an example from my current campaign.

After the 5th-level group crawled through a dungeon filled with kobolds, they found the lair of the kobolds' leaders--a cabal of kobold necromancers intent upon raising up a dark power and controlling it. As is dramatically appropriate, the PCs encounter the necros while they are in the middle of a summoning ritual to call forth a Great Dark Entity. The PCs disrupt the ritual, but the entity arrives anyway--and starts killing kobold necromancers. Taking this as their cue, the PCs flee. Through description and some Spellcraft checks, I make it quite clear that the creature seems to be a huge living version of a combination of some nasty spells (Evard's black tentacles and vampiric touch, to be precise). As the creature gorged itself on terrified kobolds, they escaped the dungeon and didn't look back.

Later, they encountered the creature again, but it still did not kill them, this time because the living spell (a living wish, actually), had gained self-awareness and wanted to thank the PCs for freeing it. The problem, of course, is that the creature is horribly amoral, but they can do nothing but try to persuade it not to kill people, and they know it. They will have to deal with the horrid creature decisively much later in their careers.

That's how I tend to run BBEGs that the PCs can't hope to defeat. Still, if I for some reason felt that I *must* place them in violent opposition to a creature much more powerful than they, I would make sure that they had help, such as a powerful artifact that levels the playing field. Or, I might make it such that the goal is not to defeat the creature, but to keep it at bay while they accomplish a vital task.

Hope that helps.

 

[gizmo33]

Clearly a different style of play is required both for DMs and for PCs when many enemies will be far beyond the PCs capabilities to defeat directly, but I don't really know how to shift gears into that style of play.

I have no idea. In fact, the Lovecraft thread got me wondering about whether or not Horror gaming is even feasible. I'm starting to think that 100% Horror really requires a certain perspective from the audience that isn't feasible in an adventure game.

For example, the perspective of any given character in a horror scenario is: one minute they're having pre-marital sex, the next minute they've got an icepick sticking out of their head. This may horrify THE AUDIENCE, but the actual "character" involved in the "adventure" isn't aware of much more than it's time to roll up a new character.

PCs seem to be much more like VanHelsing, anyway. They know they're in a horror environment, and they'll start studying their foe. Dracula, from the perspective of VanHelsing, is really just a typical DnD adventure. IMO it's only because the story is told from the perspective of the 0-level people that the story is scary. To VanHelsing (not 0-level), Dracula is not an invincible foe.

If your PCs go up against an invincible foe, it will require blind luck for them to survive. This has the potential to be more frustrating than scary, because the perspective of the players is as an advocate of their character. They're not just anonymous members of the audience. As a game, they're aware to some degree of success and failure.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Thanks for the comments so far.

I guess the important thing is to develop ways in which characters can "lose" an encounter without dying. Running away and hiding is one way. Suffering non-fatal consequences is another (losing sanity points, gaining taint, etc.).

I remember reading a column over at Wizards about how a group can find itself in a TPK situation. Typically the TPK could have been avoided, but very often the window of opportunity slips by. Helping the group reliably decide when an encounter is unwinnable would be an important part of a DM's job in a horror campaign.

I wish I could remember where exactly I read that. It involved an illithid with wight servants, IIRC.

I might go pick up that Narrative Combat rules supplement. That would probably be a useful mechanic in helping the PCs to change gears- they just have to change their combat stance.

 

[Funeris]

You know, I think I read the same article. And I think it was about a game or series of games that the writer watched at GenCon. I don't remember the name of it...

~Fune

 

[I'm A Banana]

You might want to try the tried-and-true horror motif of "magical mcguffin that the monster hates." For instance, the vampire and the cross. The Vampire doesn't exist when the Cross does. But the vampires minions will infiltrate the home and try to get rid of the Crosses, inviting disaster. The challenges that the PC's need to overcome then are focused on the minions, at least until they're high enough level to face a potential challenge by a powerful monster (I'd say keep them about 2 levels beneath the CR of the critter to make it suitably horrific and deadly). Checks to notice who is the minion, checks to avoid becoming charmed yourself, checks to notice that the room isn't protected, checks to quickly re-protect the room before the monster comes back....

There's also the argument that horror should result from the PC's own actions. Accidents are surprisingly common in a horror motif, so perhaps instituting a rule where a lack of success means that the enemy gains an advantage -- you forgot to ward a door, you neglected to think about the proper minion, you forgot something valuable and vulnerable outside...oops. You die!

You could also just get the players used to loosing characters, but that only works at certain lower levels, otherwise wipping up a new char would be a huge process...

 

[Illirion]

It may be a good option to provide the PC's with possible escape routes when you expect they'd encounter a too powerfull foe. This could take form in some kind of trap door they could uncover once they figure out they're fighting a losing battle and look around for a way out. Maybe they could find a door which they can escape through which is too small for the monster to follow.

Yet another way would be to change the monster's attitude to the players and make the monster's aim to capture the PC instead of just slaughtering them. This way, when the PC's are conscious again they have to face the challenge of escaping their detention, while the monster's not paying attention. It only makes sense for a creature more powerfull than it's opponents to feel overconfident and toy around with the victims, rather than immediately obiterate them and spoil all the fun.

 

[Warbringer]

Stay focused on the horror of the main villian. Often that will guide you. In much literrature the focus of the story is that the hero(ine) is needed by the villian to participate in his scheme.

Alternatively, remember that the party is not in a vacuum. There are bound to be other heroes fighting the dark, not just the heroes. Meaning, well BBEG may have absoultely no freaken clue who the party is. It's simply not worth his time.

Avoiding TPK: most of the mooks are bad guys, maybe even bullied, down trodden, poor... bribery is always a possibility. The villian in any subplot (not the BBEG) will often have aspiriations... the PCs escaping may be a convienent tool for him.

In a horror setting, controlling player knowledge is crucial; the unknown is far more terrorfying than the known, no matter how evil.

Finally, set mood. Suspense is critical. When you have it, it rocks...

 

[painandgreed]

Well, a large problem is that PCs have been trained by many DMs and games of facing nothing that they can't handle to stay and fight. Even if you start a campaign warning them that they can't fight everything they face and will ahve to run away at times, start them off with an obviously outclassed foe in an RPing encounter, give them int check to let them know they can't win the fight, some player will have created a PC that won't back down or avoid the fight and the others won't leave him behind. I suspect that you'll have to work them over pretty hard to get them accustomed to sizing up foes before going into combat. Even then, you'll probalby have to flub some roles until they get the skills to do so and become accustomed to running away.

The one way they are accustomed to running away is if done piecemeal. Instead of one large monster or a large group, throw the enemy at them one small group at a time until they get worn down and get it into their head they need to "leave the dungeon and heal".

PCs don't like running away. It's a blow to their pride and doesn't give them any XP or treasure. Their pride can be healed when they come back to that unbeatable foe later after a few levels and take them out. The XP situation might be dealt with by allowing them partial XP for correctly deducing that an ememy was too much for them and avoiding combat.