When playing a class-based fantasy RPG, are classes diegetic for you?

[Micah Sweet]

You do remember my objection was overextending assumptions for D&D to the whole group of class-based games, right? I gave an example of a clearly class-and-level based game where the discussion I was objecting to--determining level by looking at attack skill or spell potency--doesn't apply. Its not the only one. Class and level systems do not automatically lockstep those to class and/or level.

Yeah, you just provided it, right above this post: Fantasy Age. Not a game I'm familiar with, but fair enough.

 

[Micah Sweet]

As another example:

Rolemaster Standard System really only has two things locked to level -- caster level and resistance rolls (saving throws). (In my ideal RM, these things would be delinked as well, but I haven't come up with a way of doing this that I'm satisfied with and I eventually decided trying to find a way wasn't worth the effort.)

In 2nd edition, some of your core skills also increase with level, although the values by which they increase are small compared to what you can earn by actively developing those skills. RMSS front-loads those bonuses, so you get it all at 1st level.

Everything else is a matter of where you decide to spend your skill points. Level can give you an idea of what the maximum skill limit is for a very heavily specialised character -- but the degree to which characters choose to specialise, and what they choose to specialse in, varies tremendously, even within the same profession.

So what I'm reading here is level-based systems don't have to lock to combat ability, if you significantly de-emphasize the level aspect of the system. To me this makes them skill-based systems that happen to also have levels that affect a couple things.

 

[Micah Sweet]

In D&D, mostly. It's kind of soft-baked into the published settings and just generally the game defaults to an adventurer oriented world where most classes would be recognized as such, especially since many involve some relationship with an organization be it a wizard's school, a druidic circle, paladin order etc. The big outlier is barbarian, which is really a cultural background, so how do you become one if that's not your origin? In any I generally incorporate most game mechanics (other than a few counter to basic nature of real life things like taking turns and the action economy) into the world. I'd rather accept those conceits with a tongue and cheek approach and save my being serious about things for other matters.

Daggerheart is the class-based fantasy RPG that's not a form of D&D or clone thereof that I've played substantially and I steer further from diagetic conceits with that, because the rules are so video-gamey and have such an aggressive ludo-narrative disconnect. But still, if a player wants to refer to identify by there class in character I'll lean into that.

I've been learning the Fantasy Flight Star Wars game recently, though I haven't played it, and there most the classes (careers) line up with terminology which would be used in universe (ie: "he's a smuggler", "she's a diplomat") but in order to have multiple Jedi classes they seem to have gotten away from this a bit in the Force and Destiny book. I would note, however, that the striking thing here is that since it is a game really intended for (variations on) one well-established setting the sense of what is true in the setting players have is going to have a lot more impact, and they clearly designed the classes to lean into being compatible for diagetic use as much as possible.

Of course, FFG Star Wars is skill-based, not level-based. Virtually the whole thing is skill trees.

Happy Star Wars Day!

 

[SableWyvern]

So what I'm reading here is level-based systems don't have to lock to combat ability, if you significantly de-emphasize the level aspect of the system. To me this makes them skill-based systems that happen to also have levels that affect a couple things.

I'd say that's a reasonably fair assessment of RM. It's undisputably a skill-based system, and the main impact of levels is simply to force a minimum amount of diversification, by limiting the maximum number of ranks gained in a single skill each level.

Levels do have a noticeable impact on the use of magic, but they still do so in a much less rigid way than D&D.

 

[Thomas Shey]

It depends on what other aspects of the setting are given a level of priority. I can easily see (and have seen) an NPC with class features focused on crafting, or trade, or driving/piloting. There's no reason any RPG has to exclusively care about combat and magic to the neglect of everything else in the setting.

I won't argue with you there in principal, but given the focus of most of them, they still do because those other things are almost always going to be off-screen and aren't perceived as as worth the effort. Notably, games that lean into those other things more are disproportionately likely to not be class based in the first place.

 

[Thomas Shey]

So what I'm reading here is level-based systems don't have to lock to combat ability, if you significantly de-emphasize the level aspect of the system. To me this makes them skill-based systems that happen to also have levels that affect a couple things.

Often the levels serve some capping functions, and also control advancement (in the sense you only get to spend skill points or whatever resource when you level). Its hard to argue they aren't a level system (in contrast to pay-as-you-go experience systems) even if they don't have a couple of aspects of D&D's original level basis. After all, even D&D didn't entirely do that once they got to 3e and introduced skills, the skill advancement just lived a different life than combat bonuses and magical advancement.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yeah, you just provided it, right above this post: Fantasy Age. Not a game I'm familiar with, but fair enough.

Its hardly the only one though; besides SableWyvern's RM reference, you also have the cases of Earthdawn, and far as that goes, back in the day Alternity. As I mentioned, level still tended to cap things there, over and above regulating when you could spend skill points, so it wasn't completely meaningless, but it wasn't as lockstep in its approach. But its hard to argue it wasn't a class-and-level system.

 

[overgeeked]

Yes, they're diegetic. Anything that has an effect on the game world must exist in the game world. Wizards have to learn their magic somehow, so things like magic schools, wizard colleges, lone teachers, etc exist in the world. Clerics serve gods that exist in the world and grant them their magic, non-magical clergy also exists to serve the gods. Thieves Guilds. Paladin orders. Fighters as the exceptional veterans. Etc.

Yes, NPCs can have classes in the fictional sense but will be built mechanically as NPCs.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I won't argue with you there in principal, but given the focus of most of them, they still do because those other things are almost always going to be off-screen and aren't perceived as as worth the effort. Notably, games that lean into those other things more are disproportionately likely to not be class based in the first place.

I can think of counterexamples to that statement. ACKSII is my favorite example, with classes and class adjustments that are suited to non-adventurers, and PC classes focusing on crafting, mercantile ventures, and even gardening. I am working to incorporate this sort of thing into my 5e-based Level Up game as well.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I can think of counterexamples to that statement. ACKSII is my favorite example, with classes and class adjustments that are suited to non-adventurers, and PC classes focusing on crafting, mercantile ventures, and even gardening. I am working to incorporate this sort of thing into my 5e-based Level Up game as well.

"Disproportionately likely" implies the existance of exceptions by its construction, you know.