When to Cull Your Collection?

[Tigris]

They have their uses and are certainly handy for looking things up quickly, but in terms of learning, absorbing, and retaining information based on reading, research shows that the physical motions of reading paper books, turning pages, eye tracking (and taking notes by hand even more so) help encode the information in memory and allow superior learning.

All this does not take into account how much longer it takes if you spend more time learning (because paper is so slow) you learn more thats always the case.

And also if this is not just the effect of painfull memories. You also learn better when people scream at you (thats what they do in the military), but thats not desirable, so why should the pain of having to use outdated tools be forced upon children?


Taking note by hand is again something which takes a long time way longer than typing.

Also all these experiments are made with people who learned originally to learn via the outdated book methods. If you want real experiments, make it with children who never seen books and learned digitally first and are used to the "digital" stimulus not the ones from books.

You also can have physical stimulus (especially eye tracking) with digital tools, and that this was not consideres just shows how biased these experiments are. Scrolling with the mouse etc. is all also physical, but you wont have that with tools you are not used to.

If you just give people an ereader, they never used before, and compare this with a physical book, they were forced since childhood to use, and dont even take the time for reading etc. into account yes than it will be less efficient.


In the end all these experiments are made by old people used to books, who want to get the results that books are better. Many studies showed that the opinion of the experimenter influences the outcome massively.


Also LEARNING SHOULD NOT BE BASED ON READING! Again you are using the old outdated methods (books) and just make them digital instead of using the things digital tools can do better. You can have animations, images, videos, cross linking, sounds (potential even games) etc. even Wikipedia pages have all that, the learning is not just based upon reading.


I havent used learning by reading (alone) since I was 12, unless as small parts of school classes were old teachers forced this upon us.

No one should read books or other "just reading" (like ereaders or PDFs) for learning in todays time. I think I had 1 class in my whole bachelor/master where I was forced to learn parts reading a book (or pdf) and that was also just a small part of the learning (lectures and exercises were still used as well).

 

[Bae'zel]

I never thought I'd be debating the validity, value and relevance of physical books and art on a table top RPG forum.

 

[Mannahnin]

All this does not take into account how much longer it takes if you spend more time learning (because paper is so slow) you learn more thats always the case.

And also if this is not just the effect of painfull memories. You also learn better when people scream at you (thats what they do in the military), but thats not desirable, so why should the pain of having to use outdated tools be forced upon children?


Taking note by hand is again something which takes a long time way longer than typing.

Also all these experiments are made with people who learned originally to learn via the outdated book methods. If you want real experiments, make it with children who never seen books and learned digitally first and are used to the "digital" stimulus not the ones from books.

You also can have physical stimulus (especially eye tracking) with digital tools, and that this was not consideres just shows how biased these experiments are. Scrolling with the mouse etc. is all also physical, but you wont have that with tools you are not used to.

If you just give people an ereader, they never used before, and compare this with a physical book, they were forced since childhood to use, and dont even take the time for reading etc. into account yes than it will be less efficient.

If you're just going to boldly assert falsehoods, no one's going to want to talk with you. Goodbye.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3102/00346543231216463

 

[Bae'zel]

All this does not take into account how much longer it takes if you spend more time learning (because paper is so slow) you learn more thats always the case.

And also if this is not just the effect of painfull memories. You also learn better when people scream at you (thats what they do in the military), but thats not desirable, so why should the pain of having to use outdated tools be forced upon children?


Taking note by hand is again something which takes a long time way longer than typing.

Also all these experiments are made with people who learned originally to learn via the outdated book methods. If you want real experiments, make it with children who never seen books and learned digitally first and are used to the "digital" stimulus not the ones from books

...

No one should read books or other "just reading" (like ereaders or PDFs) for learning in todays time. I think I had 1 class in my whole bachelor/master where I was forced to learn parts reading a book (or pdf) and that was also just a small part of the learning (lectures and exercises were still used as well).

You make a lot of very strong claims here. Do you happen to have any links to studies on this? Is this really true? Silicon Valley and AI proponents must be very happy if it is.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

Oh yeah don't get me started! "There's no more good music being made anymore!" "no more good movies!" what

Dude, yes there is. Plenty. You just gotta look for it beyond pop culture or top 20 lists. You can find passionate musicians of literally ANY genre from the past 500 or more years. Young people too.

The argument I get from telling people like that to look beyond pop culture for good media is always "that doesn't count," because they're remembering the popular media that survived from their particular era, not the trash that has always been around and has since been forgotten. So frustrating. For example, 1982 was a hell of a year for film but it also saw the release of MegaForce and Mazes & Monsters.

 

[Tigris]

If you're just going to boldly assert falsehoods, no one's going to want to talk with you. Goodbye.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3102/00346543231216463

And none of my falsehoods was as extreme as yours claiming "studies showed people learn better with reading books", when the study is about reading comprehension depending on leasure time reading which is far far far away from your statement.

Also reading comprehension was tested with the PISA test (at least in the first study cited), which uses static texts for testing... https://www.oecd.org/en/about/programmes/pisa/pisa-test.html

Yes some of these texts do look a bit like really old static websites, but its still static text. Its not even chat on a mobile phone with scroll, or subtitles in 4x speed to japanese cartoons.

And again, its just reading comprehension (and that only for static text), no tests of video comprehension, audio comprehension, game comprehension, short video comprehension etc.

You make a lot of very strong claims here. Do you happen to have any links to studies on this? Is this really true? Silicon Valley and AI proponents must be very happy if it is.

Well how do professionals in jobs in companies who have time stress get information, via books or digital? I think this alone answers clearly what is more efficient.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

I never thought I'd be debating the validity, value and relevance of physical books and art on a table top RPG forum.

Certainly I did not expect that to be the direction this seemingly innocuous thread I finally got around to clicking on had gone in.

 

[Bae'zel]

And none of my falsehoods was as extreme as yours claiming "studies showed people learn better with reading books", when the study is about reading comprehension depending on leasure time reading which is far far far away from your statement.

Also reading comprehension was tested with the PISA test (at least in the first study cited), which uses static texts for testing... https://www.oecd.org/en/about/programmes/pisa/pisa-test.html

Yes some of these texts do look a bit like really old static websites, but its still static text. Its not even chat on a mobile phone with scroll, or subtitles in 4x speed to japanese cartoons.

And again, its just reading comprehension (and that only for static text), no tests of video comprehension, audio comprehension, game comprehension, short video comprehension etc.


Well how do professionals in jobs in companies who have time stress get information, via books or digital? I think this alone answers clearly what is more efficient.

Not ebooks, certainly, LLMs, I suppose.

What’s next: ebooks are also outdated because we have LLMs?

Do you prefer ChatGPt over a human DM?

Just curious how pro-tech you are to put things into context.

 

[Reef]

If they come back in support of the entertainment value of burning old DMs, I’m out of here!

 

[MGibster]

Well records/vinyl is gaining in popularity again; even some current popular artists are releasing new material on records. I don't think the same thing is happening with tape (either cassette or VHS).

I haven't owned a record player since the late 1980s, but I've been hauling around my records for almost 40 years now. Behold the jewell of my collection.