Where's the save for 'Harm' spell?

humanist05 · Jan 23, 2002

Hey Guys!

I need your input... Why doesn't 'Harm' (6th level cleric spell from PHB, p.212) have a saving throw? I find it odd that the other 'mega-kill' cleric spells all have saves:

Death Knell (2nd level)
'Inflict Wound' spells (various levels)
Circle of Doom (5th level)
Destruction (7th level)
Slay Living (5th level)
Implosion (9th level)
Energy Drain (9th level)

e.g (except for Blasphemy, 7th level cleric spell, which only does major incapacitating effects to lower level opponents.) Is there an official erratum for this spell somewhere? WotC doesn't have it listed. I find this spell WAY too unbalancing without a saving throw. If this question has been asked before, please forgive me. Thanks for the help...

Orco42 · Jan 23, 2002

It has no save and IMO does not need one.

Most people here will lynch me but it is the same as it always has been.

It is very powerful, but most of my games are too low of a level for it to matter.

Akunin · Jan 23, 2002

Harm has never had one.

ShadowJester · Jan 23, 2002

In 2E is was fine, but the big diffrence in 3E in the touch attack rule in 2E to take a dragon down to a few HP with you thaco 12 (+ 8 attack bonus clearic) you had to hit their straight ac( try getting 30) but now you just have to hit there unarmored (now try 8)

humanist05 · Jan 23, 2002

But for throughness and for those who DO use it at higher levels, don't you think being able to zap a creature's hit points (save d4), REGARDLESS how many they have without a saving throw, awfully powerful (6th level??? When other spell HIGHER in level that do almost the same thing HAVE saves???)

With 'Harm' I can just by making a touch attack, devastate MOST ANY creature (save those without spell resistance, undead or constructs). :-(

PCs with this spell, can annihilate MOST any baddie with this spell.

And don't say I told you so when that evil priest (mininum 11th level) smacks you with that 'Harm' spell without ANY save whatsoever... who cares if your fighter has 124 hit points... :-(

Orco42 · Jan 23, 2002

I will agree that it is easier to hit something with harm now.

But it does not unbalance it much. If the players start using it a lot make sure they fight Hierophants with ranged harm and quickened Cause Wound spells.

humanist05 · Jan 23, 2002

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>Harm has nver had one.

True, but in 2E it was STILL a 6th level spell, when the limit for cleric spells was 7th level. Now there are clerical spells up to 9TH level in 3E. I just can't get over the fact that little 'ol 'death knell' (2nd level) has a save and 'Harm' doesn't! :-(

ruleslawyer · Jan 23, 2002

Having previously embroiled myself in debates about harm, I will avoid doing so for now. Suffice it to say that this is a very powerful spell, and you therefore may wish to house-rule it. I personally do so IMC.

My suggestions would be to implement one of the following:

1) Add a save for Will partial (target loses half its current hp)

OR

2) No save, but impose a damage cap of 15 hp/caster level

IMHO, either of the above would be a balanced "fix." I use the latter, and it works fine.

Akunin · Jan 23, 2002

There was a discussion on Harm over at the board-that-shall-not-be-named, and I'm pulling a few comments I posted over there. To give a frame fo reference, I'm of the "don't house rule it if it doesn't cause problems in your game" camp, and have never had any problems with Harm (1e, 2e, or 3e), nor have my players ever expressed a problem with the spell being used by their opponents. Your group may have a different outlook.

Someone said it was too easy to get close to opponents and deliver the touch attack. Dragons got brought up, as they often do in harm discussions (and just as often, SR is "forgotten" in such arguments) My suggestions:

Attacks of Opportunity, Reach Weapons, Spell Resistance, Readied Actions, non-Armor AC bonuses (there are quite a lot of them out there)....

If a Dragon in your campaign lets the Cleric walk up and touch it, it deserves to die, and the DM deserves a smack for handing over the dragon's XP and treasure to the PCs. (was in reference to Dragons fighting intelligently - i.e. not letting Fighters get full attack actions against them, not letting Rogues flank them, using their mobility, breath, and spells strategically)

Someone else commented that there are no spells of 7th level or below that can screw over a PC without a save. A partial list:

Antimagic Field
Blasphemy
Creeping Doom
Dictum
Enervation
Force Cage
Geas / Quest
Holy Word
Mark of Justice
Power Word, Stun
Word of Chaos

Granted, most of these aren't as nasty as Harm, but there are many ways of putting a hurting on an opponent that provide for no saves.

At 12th+ level, the game gets downright deadly - anyone who's taken a good look at the type of challenges a higher-level party faces knows this to be true. It might be LESS deadly now, HP-wise, since you're still getting Hit Dice at that point (and CON bonuses are better) but, as they have been in previous editions, the spells are still something to worry about. Some might not kill you outright, but at that level, even being unable to act for one round can easily be fatal.

And if you're relying on armor alone to protect you (re: touch attacks), rather than good strategy and defensive magic, you WILL get yourself offed. Past 8th-12th level, you're (typically) one of the biggest bad-asses in the land, and the challenges you face start ramping up quickly.

Play with Harm as-is for a while and see how it works. If it doesn't work out in your game, I'd suggest allowing a successful Will save result in the target's Hit points being halved.