Why Fantasy?

[payn]

I think they always were, though. In 1983-1985 or so, I know for sure that I played some Star Frontiers, some Top Secret, dabbled a bit in Call of Cthulhu and even had a look at James Bond and a few others. But we always came back to and played a lot more D&D than anything else. I'm not sure that I can explain why; I had just as much fun with those other games (and more) but somehow D&D was always the common denominator of the hobby.

And even some of the non-D&D games, like Legends of the Five Rings or RuneQuest or EarthDawn or whatever else we flirted with were still definitely fantasy, in the same wheelhouse more or less as D&D.

I kept coming back to D&D...until 4E. Though, mostly it was PF that taught me what I was really trying to get out of D&D. Detailed settings with complex adventures and fully customizable chargen. 5E has some of what I want, but not enough. Coupling that with my dabbling with other systems which became a full time exploration. Publishers have gotten better, but so have I when it comes to making my own material.

Now, my break has been more in the last 10 years, but I realized ive been trying to break from D&D for much longer. I know from the folks I chat with online and in person im not alone there. I do get your story though and how the gravity of D&D fantasy is too much for many to break from. Assuming, of course, they want to.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

tend to lean further into life as it is, cynicism and all.

I would love to find any media that does that without going well past "life as it is" and deep into "life as imagined by very pessimistic people".

If you have any recs...


------‐---------

@ OP

I think that Fantasy absolutely includes a lot of sci-fi, from Bladerunner to Star Wars and many anime titles, so for me sci fi isnt as popular because it is a more specific subset, so it is like comparing the popularity of dark fantasy vs high heroic fantasy.

And i actually prefer mixed genre games

You should read Tolkien's influences.

Pretty much all scholarship on the subject agrees that Tolkien created the fantasy genre.

For a broad definition of fantasy that undermines the discussion at hand. I mean, James Bond is fantasy.

It has magic.

 

[RenleyRenfield]

Sure, but that's a modern rifle, not something people were using in the 1500-1600s, I presume. I mean, I know some people are into black powder shooting, although I've never heard of people hunting with muzzle-loaders in this day and age.

1000% We hunt with muzzle loaders! Its a whole dedicated season for them

 

[aramis erak]

It is still a heavy lifter. My post did not have a the in that spot. To be fair, I dropped that the just before posting.

Mongoose has several full-time staff... And spent a good bit buying out Marc W. Miller last year. They now own Traveller as a game. Marc retains literary rights... And is working on another novel.

Note also: Jeff Swycaffer and Charles Gannon both have deep Traveller ties in their literature. Jeff literally wrote up portions of his novels for Traveller, and Chuck was prolific writing for Traveller in the 90's.
William H Kieth was another prolific Traveller author, both rules and fiction, and Bill and his brother, J. Andrew Kieth were prolific Traveller artists.
Bill, Chuck, and Jeff all have successful series...

Traveller is a major player in Sci-fi gaming... Since 1977... With only one year out of print.
The major SF rpgs outside Traveller have mostly been licensed settings... Mostly TV and Movies... But also the space fantasy settings of Star Wars and 40k... And more recently, Starfinder.

TSR Alternity's big space opera setting, StarDrive, was pretty much a Traveller knockoff...
40k has a lot of Travellerisms... Just before GDW cancelled the 3rd party OTU licenses (1984), GW was working on a new, more playable, Traveller Minis Game... Soon as the license was pulled, 40k was announced.... GW did ratchet the fantasy up by release in 40k... But I doubt 40k would have happened had GDW not pulled GW's Traveller License...

Sci Fi is always a smaller fanbase than Space Fantasy, but only 2 space fantasy settings have strong fiction presence -- 40k and Star Wars...

And both have huge fanbases... But in the rpg space, Traveller holds its own. It's space opera, not hard Sci-Fi, but the same is true of most every successful sci-fi rpg... Alien, Stargate, Star*Drive, Star Trek, BSG, Firefly, Serenity, FGU's Space Opera, Coriolis, Justifiers, Jovian Chronicles, Heavy Gear, Mekton, Battletech... And the space fantasies of WH40k, Starfinder, and Star Wars. And, for a while, Spelljammer.
Only one name come to mind for non space opera hard SF rpging... GURPS Transhuman Space...

They all tend softish... The softer, the better they do. Nothing gets softer than high fantasy or planetary romance (eg Flash Gordon, John Carter, He-Man)

 

[aramis erak]

Both fantasy and romance are their own distinctly different genres. Whether the fantasy is front and center and the romance is secondary, or whether the romance is primary and the fantasy is secondary depends on how the creator wants it to be. Neither can be considered to be a subset of the other, even if romance gets the top billing most of the time. The same goes for any pairing of genres. Romance/comedy, comedy/drama, etc.

I personally don't recall more romance movies with fantasy being secondary like Stardust or Princess Bride than I do movies that were fantasy first and romance second like Lord of the Rings, D&D, Narnia. To my recollection most of the time the fantasy movie just happens to have a few characters that are/become romantically involved, but the fantasy portion is still the primary focus of the movie or book. Where are you getting your numbers from?

Go look at the comparative size of the novel sections. Most book stores, the romance section is 2 to 3 times the size, and per friends who worked in them, moves more per unit shelf space romance, mostly low fantasy to historical, moves 3 to 5 times the volume of classic fantasy, lumping all the non-romance fantasy together.

Go look at the profit margin on modern romance tv ... There's not much fantasy on video, but meg Ryan made her career in romances in the movies. As did a dozen other stars. They're cheap, easy, and make back at the box office.

Sci-Fi and mid-high fantasy, Sword & Sorcery, space opera, and hard SF all cost a lot and make little. So not a lot get made.

 

[payn]

William H Kieth was another prolific Traveller author, both rules and fiction, and Bill and his brother, J. Andrew Kieth were prolific Traveller artists.
Bill, Chuck, and Jeff all have successful series...

I read some of Keiths Battletech novels. I'll have to check out some of his Traveller stuff.

 

[aramis erak]

I read some of Keiths Battletech novels. I'll have to check out some of his Traveller stuff.

Most of Bill's Traveller fiction is in magazines. He was one of the contributory designers for 80's Classic Traveller. The Magazines are JTAS, MegaTraveller Journal, and Challenge.

 

[Maxperson]

Go look at the comparative size of the novel sections. Most book stores, the romance section is 2 to 3 times the size, and per friends who worked in them, moves more per unit shelf space romance, mostly low fantasy to historical, moves 3 to 5 times the volume of classic fantasy, lumping all the non-romance fantasy together.

Go look at the profit margin on modern romance tv ... There's not much fantasy on video, but meg Ryan made her career in romances in the movies. As did a dozen other stars. They're cheap, easy, and make back at the box office.

Sci-Fi and mid-high fantasy, Sword & Sorcery, space opera, and hard SF all cost a lot and make little. So not a lot get made.

I feel like you are answering something that I didn't say. I was specifically talking about fantasy movies that also contain romance between some of the characters. There are more fantasy first movies that simply have a few characters romantically involved, than there are romance first, fantasy second movies like The Princess Bride. At least that's my experience and recollection.

That said, I am curious about the size of the fantasy section at the Barnes and Noble stores I go to. The fantasy/sci-fi section is like 4 rows or more. A romance section that's 8-12 rows would be insane. I'll have to check it out.

 

[Maxperson]

See, and I have never had much for recognition amongst the normies for LotR other than the fact that at some point many have seen the movies at least. As for actual knowledge of LotR, it's non-existent beyond what little they remember from the movies. Honestly, I think it might be more of a tangential to knowing a nerd, rather than actual cultural zeitgeist. Impossible to tell really, though most normies have at least heard of LotR, that alone does give it some zeitgeist recognition.

Yeah. I was talking about people seeing the movies. They understand quests, dwarves, elves, halflings, wizards, etc., which help them understand what D&D is. As for the bolded portion, how is that different from Game of Thrones? I doubt the vast majority of those who watched Game of Thrones read the books.

 

[Maxperson]

In a vain attempt to drag this thread back on its actual topic(s):

Who prefers a genre other than fantasy for TTRPGs? What games do you prefer? What would it take for that preferred genre, do you think, to better compete with fantasy in the TTRPG mindspace?

I prefer fantasy for sure. That said, I also enjoy superhero games, post apocalyptic games, and occasionally sci-fi.