D&D General Why fear is good for PCs

[tetrasodium]

What would mechanical support for tension against greed look like? Bringing back the wealth tables from 3e and letting players know their characters are expected to have X amounts of Stuff by level Y? Making long rests longer?

Seriously? A lot like the post where I wrote about quite a few ways it was structurally importance to the table dynamica of past editions and current absence from the 5e the other day in this thread. Rehashing that from the square one focused on only a single thread of the tapestry as you singled out seems unproductive when said post was literally being quoted in 52 on the same page as your post asking about it.

@Willie the Duck I placed the blame on 5e and ignored 4e for that because adeu is so incredibly different from attrition across adventuring day that it presents unique concerns hard to compare.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

As someone who played a lot of 1st edition, the idea that people were afraid of character death is ridiculous.

"We go back to town and collect another Bob" was a well established trope. No one cares if the pawns die.

 

[Remathilis]

As someone who played a lot of 1st edition, the idea that people were afraid of character death is ridiculous.

"We go back to town and collect another Bob" was a well established trope. No one cares if the pawns die.

It comes from players who wanted to play characters, not toons designed to be tossed into a wood chipper. If I wanted to play a game where I don't care if the pawn dies, I'll play chess. If you want me to play D&D like that, don't be surprised when those pawns don't have names, backgrounds or personalities.

"Elf 14, freshly sprung up from the ground and ready to go back into the dungeon!"

 

[Paul Farquhar]

It comes from players who wanted to play characters, not toons designed to be tossed into a wood chipper. If I wanted to play a game where I don't care if the pawn dies, I'll play chess. If you want me to play D&D like that, don't be surprised when those pawns don't have names, backgrounds or personalities.

"Elf 14, freshly sprung up from the ground and ready to go back into the dungeon!"

And the thing is, whilst a a player is more likely to care about a developed and detailed character, they are unlikely to consider losing such a character a fun time that they would want to repeat.

 

[Minion X]

Actually, actually...

I think the point of that quote is about who is making the decision. The GM deciding they know what is best for you, without consulting you, is the issue at hand there.

I expect my dungeon master to take me in hand and know how to show me a good time. Trusting the master is everything in roleplay, even if it seems harsh or strict, or even scary.

 

[Pamphylian]

Totally random death is not especially fear inducing for reasons well put up-thread. But I think this is why having the game provide a good, semi-legible risk-reward decision surface is important. The players choose how much to push their luck, and how much to gamble, with rewards on average in proportion to what is risked. My ideal calculus of PC deaths is that they are not guaranteed to be heroic, or only show up in scenarios of extreme incompetence or story contrivance, but do follow a risk reward gradient and a player skill gradient. You do have a chance of dying ignominiously to a goblin arrow or silly trap,*** but the odds are shifted towards risks and rewards that can be generally assessed by good play. And world events should move such that doing nothing allows risk to build as well, since evil never sleeps. I think this is why Treasure works well as a player motivation, playing off of resource attrition - its divisibility means you can spread its acquisition such that the highest rewards are guarded by the highest dangers, and the temptation to push on trades off against the dangers of doing so. You can also fit this into non-gold shaped forms - saving one more villager, avenging one more slight.

***

 

[Brotton Goodfellow]

An absurd 1950s creature double feature regularly found on afternoon syndication back in the 80s & 90s really doesn't make a strong case

Yes, giant ants can be campy, but what if I didn’t want them to be? How could I take something like giant ants and make it actually kinda frightening to encounter?

Or here’s a different take: A goblin/orc horde. How do I as a DM make that frightening to players? How do I capture the dread the men of Rohan felt at the Battle of Helms Deep when they looked out from those mighty walls and saw overwhelming might and evil? How then do I turn it into something to use at the table? Game mechanics alone can’t do it.

Heroism and courage are not the absence of fear, but the overcoming of it. If I want players to feel heroic and courageous, I’ve got to give them something to fear to overcome besides losing HP or gear (although that can be one aspect of it, it shouldn’t be the main driver).

Ultimately, in order for fear to work, everyone has to show up willing to be spooked or thrilled. I’m sure there’s a bunch of badasses on this forum who think haunted house attractions aren’t scary and actually they’re stupid. No matter what you do or say, those people aren’t going to feel fear at all at a gaming table.

 

[Pamphylian]

Is the issue that the game mechanics isn’t frightening or is it an indifference from DM’s and players toward what would actually be frightening?

Have you ever actually thought about what it would be like to fight a giant ant? Some of you might freak out when a normal sized ant crawls on you, now make that thing the size of a large dog and capable of lopping off limbs with its razor sharp pincers. On top of that imagine being in a giant ant colony. Numerous dark tunnels made not for man, all of which could contain more ants. The tunnels seem unstable and the way back could all of a sudden be blocked by a collapse. Not to mention the ants spit a sticky substance that burns and can blind creatures. Oh and if queen ant and her eggs aren’t destroyed, these ants will take over the nearby town and threaten the region for generations.

Brings to mind...

 

[MGibster]

Have you ever actually thought about what it would be like to fight a giant ant? Some of you might freak out when a normal sized ant crawls on you, now make that thing the size of a large dog and capable of lopping off limbs with its razor sharp pincers. On top of that imagine being in a giant ant colony.

The problem with fantasy is typically one of creating an atmosphere where horror really isn't the focus. Dragons, mind flayers, mimics, gelatanous cubes, and many other creatures are fit for horror movies. But we typically don't think of it that way because fantasy isn't usually about horror even if it might contain scary elements. Vermithrax Perjorative (Dragonslayer) is one of the scariest dragons I've ever seen in a movie and as presented is pretty close to horror.

An absurd 1950s creature double feature regularly found on afternoon syndication back in the 80s & 90s really doesn't make a strong case

Them! is a good movie. Cheesy by our standards, but it was nominated for an Academy Award for special effects and it was popular with critics and audiences. It was one of the earliest radioactive monster movies to use insects.

As someone who played a lot of 1st edition, the idea that people were afraid of character death is ridiculous.

"We go back to town and collect another Bob" was a well established trope. No one cares if the pawns die.

That was back in the day when creatures with level drain or something like the rust monster were the scaries foes you could encounter.

 

[tetrasodium]

Yes, giant ants can be campy, but what if I didn’t want them to be? How could I take something like giant ants and make it actually kinda frightening to encounter?

Or here’s a different take: A goblin/orc horde. How do I as a DM make that frightening to players? How do I capture the dread the men of Rohan felt at the Battle of Helms Deep when they looked out from those mighty walls and saw overwhelming might and evil? How then do I turn it into something to use at the table? Game mechanics alone can’t do it.

Heroism and courage are not the absence of fear, but the overcoming of it. If I want players to feel heroic and courageous, I’ve got to give them something to fear to overcome besides losing HP or gear (although that can be one aspect of it, it shouldn’t be the main driver).

Ultimately, in order for fear to work, everyone has to show up willing to be spooked or thrilled. I’m sure there’s a bunch of badasses on this forum who think haunted house attractions aren’t scary and actually they’re stupid. No matter what you do or say, those people aren’t going to feel fear at all at a gaming table.

Snipping the bit of my post about how something relies on using the gm as life support for what mechanics should be carrying in order to ask how the gm could choose to serve as life support for the missing mechanics is an odd choice, but the how is a fairly simple matter of monster design cast aside by 5e. Being deliberately designed so it would pretty much check any and all possible boxes wrt carrying mechanically freighting functionality the old beholders up to 3.x§ make for excellent examples of how to leverage mechanics in designing a monster to be scary. Happily there is a great video someone made on that design and why it was important in play

§ Not sure enough about 4e to be confident either way

Them! is a good movie. Cheesy by our standards, but it was nominated for an Academy Award for special effects and it was popular with critics and audiences. It was one of the earliest radioactive monster movies to use insects.

I agree on it being enjoyable to watch that was why I took the time to find and link to a stream for the movie in 58 rather than just the initial embed of the trailer it's trailer. I just thought it was funny to see a post talking up a fight with giant beasts as some kinda model for frightening encounters given the role of giant-$beast monsters throughout d&d's history.