D&D 5E (2024) Wild Magic Sorcerer is Best Sorcerer Subclass

[ECMO3]

Not convinced about this.

Getting up on low hp usually leads to going straight back down again.

Making your save with Strength of the Grave gives you more hit points than the 1 hit point per level Drconic ability gives.

If I am a 13th level Sorcerer and the next attack is going to eliminate the 18 extra hit points that I get from Strength of the Grave, then it would also eliminate the 13 extra hit points the Draconic Sorcerer has to begin with.

Further Strength of the Grave works against a 0hp floor which limits the damage you take, this compounds your "daily ration" of hit points. If my 13th level Shadow Sorcerer has 2 hit points left and take 10 damage I get an easy save to get back to 18 hps left. My 13th level Draconic Sorcerer loses 10 hit points and has 5 hps left.

The save is the only downside but with Lucky, Inspiration, ways to recharge inspiration and the Mage Slayer feat it is going to be very rare you miss it unless it is really high damage, in which case Mage Slayer will still succeed and those extra Draconic hit points are probably not going to matter anyway.

If you reach level 18 at all, it's only going to be for a tiny fraction of the game.

Sure but we are comparing the subclasses across all levels from 3 to 20 aren't we? This is a huge increase in duribility, essentially doubling hit points when you need them. Further if we are only talking about going to level 10 then there are not as many extra hit points Draconic Sorcerer is providing.

I agree that draconic is fairly meh unless you are playing solo though. If you really want better AC or hp you can get that with your species choice. And damage focus aint great for a caster.

I agree that damage focus is not great for a caster, I just don't agree that Draconic Sorcerer is close to the other two I mentioned when it comes to survivability. I actually think the distance between Draconic and Shadow/Divine in this respect is greater than the Distance between Draconic and the others. Also FWIW Hex Blade is pretty competitive with Draconic Sorcerer for survivability if built for that (but still not with the other two).

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Making your save with Strength of the Grave gives you more hit points than the 1 hit point per level Drconic ability gives.

Sure, but when it gives them to you is when you are already stufffed. It restores you in exactly the situation that put you down in the first place, and it’s probably not your turn so you can’t move somewhere safer or glug a potion.

The fundamental flaw in this ability is you can't choose when to use it.

Sure but we are comparing the subclasses across all levels from 3 to 20 aren't we

I don’t, I compare them across how they play in a real game, not a white room. So abilities gained early have far more weight than those that are gained late (or more likely not at all for level 18).

 

[ECMO3]

Sure, but when it gives them to you is when you are already stufffed. It restores you in exactly the situation that put you down in the first place, and it’s probably not your turn so you can’t move somewhere safer or glug a potion.

The same is true for the Draconic Sorcerer's extra hit points and he has LESS of them then Shadow doesafter using this ability.

If a SS is left with level+charisma hit points after using Strength of the Grave, then the Draconic Sorcerer with the same Constitution would have less than level+1 hit points and would be at the same place in the turn order.

There are situational dependancies - you can fail the save as a Shadow Sorcerer, but then you can use it again and you can only use it successfully once a day where the Draconic Sorcerer could top back up after a difficult fight but the ability is still a lot better than the extra hit points IME, especially since a few extra hit points are extremely easy to come by, especially for a Sorcerer, while cheating the 0 hit point floor is not easily available to a Sorcerer.

The fundamental flaw in this ability is you can't choose when to use it.

You can't choose when to use the extra hit points you have from Draconic Sorcerer either. You only "use" them if you take enough damage that you would otherwise be down without them, which is exactly when you would use Strength of the Grave if you didn't have them.

I don’t, I compare them across how they play in a real game, not a white room. So abilities gained early have far more weight than those that are gained late (or more likely not at all for level 18).

About half of the games I play are 1-20 games and I have played both Divine Soul and Shadow Sorcerers to high level.

The first level you get subclass abilities in 2024 is 3rd level. At that level having the ability to not go down at 0 hps and heal for 6 hps is WAY better than having 3 more hit points to start with. It gets closer as you go up in level but never really gets better IMO and at 18th level the Shadow Sorcerer surges ahead.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The same is true for the Draconic Sorcerer's extra hit points and he has LESS of them then you do after using this ability

If you have extra max hp you can use it as often as you like. Just need a friendly healer in the party. The amount is fairly trivial, but it can mean the difference between going down to a breath weapon and staying on your feet, and not just once per day.

I would consider both abilities fairly trivial, but on the whole, +max hp is better.

But not getting hit in the first place is better than both.

 

[ECMO3]

If you have extra max hp you can use it as often as you like. Just need a friendly healer in the party.

Yeah so you can't use it whenever you like unless you have a Friendly healer in the party.

The amount is fairly trivial, but it can mean the difference between going down to a breath weapon and staying on your feet, and not just once per day.'

It is trivial, but Strength of the Grave is not because it works any time you make the save, and you can even automatically make it with a feat and that requires no one else in the party.

I would consider both abilities fairly trivial, but on the whole, +max hp is better.

IME in play Strength of the Grave is very effective, for that matter the Orc ability to drop to 1 hp and Death Ward are very effective too. An extra hit point per level is not.

Part of this is the 0 hit point floor that makes having twice as many hit points not nearly twice as survivable.

But not getting hit in the first place is better than both.

This is a key reason why Divine Soul is so good (i.e. Sanctuary) and it is really the only Sorcerer that I think stacks up well with Shadow.

I would offer though that between Shadow and Draconic, the difference here is minimal if anything at all. If you are building for survivability and avoiding hits, a Draconic Sorcerer is going to have the same AC as a Shadow Sorcerer with Mage armor until level 12, with a better spell selection for avoiding damage (Darkness they can see through, Bane)

 

[Zardnaar]

Yeah so you can't use it whenever you like unless you have a Friendly healer in the party.



It is trivial, but Strength of the Grave is not because it works any time you make the save, and you can even automatically make it with a feat and that requires no one else in the party.




IME in play Strength of the Grave is very effective, for that matter the Orc ability to drop to 1 hp and Death Ward are very effective too. An extra hit point per level is not.

Part of this is the 0 hit point floor that makes having twice as many hit points not nearly twice as survivable.



This is a key reason why Divine Soul is so good (i.e. Sanctuary) and it is really the only Sorcerer that I think stacks up well with Shadow.

I would offer though that between Shadow and Draconic, the difference here is minimal if anything at all. If you are building for survivability and avoiding hits, a Draconic Sorcerer is going to have the same AC as a Shadow Sorcerer with Mage armor until level 12, with a better spell selection for avoiding damage (Darkness they can see through, Bane)

Not having to pick mage armor is decent though.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Yeah so you can't use it whenever you like unless you have a Friendly healer in the party.

Err, have you ever actually played a game of D&D?!

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Not having to pick mage armor is decent though.

True, but you could play as a tortle...

 

[ECMO3]

Err, have you ever actually played a game of D&D?!

Yes, but saying one class abilities are better than another while relying on what other PCs are going to do is off and I have played games where there was not a PC was going to top you up after every fight (I know I don't do that for other PCs, even when I'm playing a Cleric).

If you are considering what other PCs are bringing to the table there are numerous other variables here and it would not be a straight comparison between the subclasses.

 

[TwoSix]

Yes, but saying one class abilities are better than another while relying on what other PCs are going to do is off and I have played games where there was not a PC was going to top you up after every fight (I know I don't do that for other PCs, even when I'm playing a Cleric).

If you are considering what other PCs are bringing to the table there are numerous other variables here and it would not be a straight comparison between the subclasses.

I'd have to disagree there. How well a class or subclass ability will synergize with commonly available abilities brought by other characters should absolutely be a consideration for relative strength.

Yes, it makes the analysis harder by adding a lot of confounding variables, but that doesn't mean those considerations have no weight.