D&D General WotC's Dan Ayoub talks OGL mistakes--"we're recovering from loud public missteps"

In an interview with Wargamer, Dan Ayoub--head of Dungeons & Dragons at Wizards of the Coast--talked about the trust the company lost when it tried to rescind the Open Gaming License back in 2023. Ayoub took over at WotC in 2025, two years after the crisis, and said of the events "But I don't want to skirt the focus of your question. It was a rug pull, right? A lot of people and businesses were built up around a specific thing. Trust was given to the brand, and people rightly felt the rug was pulled from under them. In some cases, it's caused damage we are still trying to fix today."

He also spoke about D&D's new franchise model, reconnecting with classic D&D creators like Margaret Weis, Tracy Hickman, Bob Salvatore and Luke Gygax, and bringing on new partners. Check out the interview here.

 

[Maxperson]

For instance, 5.5 players in an older module that encounter a werewolf may be about to have an unpleasant experience.

I don't have the 5.5e MM. What is the difference between the werewolves?

 

[AlViking]

I don't have the 5.5e MM. What is the difference between the werewolves?

They removed the immunity to damage and increased HP to compensate. The monster changed but if you use either version it doesn't really matter the DM simply has to decide which version of the monster to use. Just like if you have two versions of anything else.

I always thought it was a dumb carryover from 3e; either you had silver (or magic) weapons and lycanthropes were underpowered for their CR or they were unkillable monsters you could only run from.

 

[saviirkad]

I agree, just on the opposite side. To me the double-speak is call 5e24 by the name 5.5e.

Yeah, the need for it to be 5.5e is what really felt like double-speak to me, and it still feels very awkward to say because I feel like I have to clarify each time that really I just mean 5e.

5e14/5e24 was nice shorthand, but even still, unless I'm needing to specify which book with the same title, the distinction is entirely moot for me.

 

[Maxperson]

I prefer that they had not starting calling it 5.5e because I find that more disingenuous than calling it 5e.

I don't. Even though I agree with you that it's not truly a new edition, like 3.5e and 4.5e, there needs to be a distinction or else discussions about 5e would get very confusing. Interpretations on rules already make threads difficult enough, without throwing in two different rules for the same thing both called 5e.

 

[Maxperson]

I always thought it was a dumb carryover from 3e; either you had silver (or magic) weapons and lycanthropes were underpowered for their CR or they were unkillable monsters you could only run from.

That was only true in 1e/2e where they were completely immune if you didn't have the weapons. In 3e/3.5e and 5e, you could still hurt them without silver/magic, but it was just harder and more of a challenge.

 

[dave2008]

Right now WotC can pull the OGL Fiasco again, any time they want. They cannot pull it if it's in CC.

While the current leadership seems very unlikely to pull those shenanigans again, in 5 years there could be new leadership that views the fallout from such an act as acceptable and pulls the trigger on it.

Yes, we are all aware.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes, we are all aware.

You asked the question, "What do you think putting 3e into CC would solve?" That was the answer. If you were aware, why ask the question?

 

[bsss]

Right now WotC can pull the OGL Fiasco again, any time they want. They cannot pull it if it's in CC.

While the current leadership seems very unlikely to pull those shenanigans again, in 5 years there could be new leadership that views the fallout from such an act as acceptable and pulls the trigger on it.

And as little effort it is to do the CC BY work, it would be even less work for them to weigh in on the permanence of the OGL as it relates to third parties. That they choose to do neither says to me that it was an empty promise they are ignoring now that the crisis is "over" from their perspective.

 

[bedir than]

My original claim was OGL is functionally dead. Sure theres a few minor producers still using it. I never claimed no ones using it. No major company seems to be using it.

At least two of the companies I listed have million dollar kickstarters. At least four have multiple 500k Kickstarters. At least two WotC hired talent from recently.

These are not small RPG companies using the OGL still.

 

[bsss]

At least two of the companies I listed have million dollar kickstarters. At least four have multiple 500k Kickstarters. At least two WotC hired talent from recently.

These are not small RPG companies using the OGL still.

Also, there are companies not on Beyond continuing to use and benefit from the OGL. It is important to the hobby, without a shadow of a doubt. Just not important to WotC/Hasbro.