Grid-less 4e?

[Cwheeler]

Ok, I know that when 4e came out there was this big uproar (or at least a bit of chatter) about how it would be practically impossible to do combat without a grid map.

I was wondering if anyone has tried to play using 'traditional' storytelling combat, and how much sucess (if any) they've had with it.

[Kordeth]

I haven't, but if I did, I'd probably just roughly gauge distance by "melee, close, near, and far" ranges or something similar and have forced movement powers just move critters into different "range bands" and say that one move action is usually enough to close one range category (or vice versa).

[StarFyre]

we use story telling combat in that if people look close enough, i will let them move there...

other times, when fine movement may be required, we use warhammer method....rulers and distance in inches. This way any direction can be done and any blasts, explosions, etc are converted to inches in our games to measure radius, length, etc.

works fine...

Sanjay

[Cwheeler]

I haven't, but if I did, I'd probably just roughly gauge distance by "melee, close, near, and far" ranges or something similar and have forced movement powers just move critters into different "range bands" and say that one move action is usually enough to close one range category (or vice versa).

I like it - Hadn't thought of doing combat this way. The problem in this though is that it could prompt you to think more two-dimensionally.

Also, I was thinking that it may be important for the DM to be able to keep track of general grid positoining in order to adjudicate blast effects.

we use story telling combat in that if people look close enough, i will let them move there...

other times, when fine movement may be required, we use warhammer method....rulers and distance in inches. This way any direction can be done and any blasts, explosions, etc are converted to inches in our games to measure radius, length, etc.

I take it that this means that you use minnis on a non-grid surface?

[Jack Colby]

I seriously considered it last night! I intend to attempt it still, just not with the main group of PCs. I really want to do a test and see how it works, because the grid and minis route is starting to feel a bit confining. I'll report back if it happens...

[Jack Colby]

Originally Posted by Cwheeler

Also, I was thinking that it may be important for the DM to be able to keep track of general grid positoining in order to adjudicate blast effects.

For blasts I'd just make a judgment call and let PCs group in a few monsters if it seemed they were relatively close together in my description of things. There's no reason to be so precise with magic. It's magic. For other blasts, use description to make sense of it.

[OpsKT]

Well, when Saga Star Wars first came out, people said you'd have to have minis, period. I proceeded to take it to the Boy Scout Summer Camp I was working at as a cook, and ran it for 6 weeks without a mini anywhere. At all.

What Saga (and 4E combat) boils down to is relative distance.

For 4E, those distances are;

Melee - Reach - Short - Long

For example, Party of a Warlord, Paladin, Fighter, and Rogue are fighting a White Dragon at the top of the falls in Fallcrest. (Actually, the game I ran last week). Paladin is Longsword, with some dabble ranged from being multi-Feylock. Warlord is longsword/longspear (this fight, using shield for the bonus to reflex defense), Fighter is using a Halberd, and Rogue is using Shuriken.

Thus, for this fight, the relative ranges break down as follows;

Warlord - Melee
Paladin - Melee or Short
Fighter - Reach
Rogue - Short
Dragon - Reach

Now, via description, I just described the fight in terms of relative range. The Rogue kept herself at short range, out of the dragon's breath/claw range. The fighter and the dragon kept each other at Reach range. The Warlord and Paladin had no choice but to close to melee, in reach of the dragon. They would shift in and out of Melee into reach as needed to heal, letting the Fighter and Rogue try and keep the dragon pinned near the cliff (she used trick strike).

Whole fight, not one mini used.

Would I do this for all of them? Probably not, cause I already have a nice collection of maps, minis, and tiles. But I don't generally bother to set up unless the fight is even odds (4 on 4) anyway, or the enemy is range heavy and the PCs need to use cover to close to melee.

[burntgerbil]

I think it boils down to the type of people you have involved with the game. I am a very visual person - if you give me instructions, no matter how close, I will get lost. But if I have a map, I can drive cross country.

We used grids and minis back with 2nd ed years ago and used handy Tact-tiles up through 3e to now with 4th. I played in a 1st ed campaign about three years ago - I got through 2 sessions before I had to quit. Not that I wanted to, but I had to - I just couldn't keep track of all that stuff in my head anymore and they were specifically no-mini people.

So I guess I am just handicapped like that, or the people who say you need a grid are just like me. D&D and minis have always gone together for me - although I applaud those that can game without them. I do feel that 4e is to this date, the most grid-reliant system.

I mean I am sure there is a way for me to play 4e without a grid, but that's like running my car off of bald eagles - even if I could, I wouldn't want to go through the trouble.

[Gloombunny]

As burnt says, some people do well with minis and badly without, or vice versa, regardless of system.

Based on what people who've tried running 4e miniless say, it seems to me that if you could run other editions of D&D without minis then you can run 4e without minis, provided that a) the GM is willing to a bit of on-the-fly estimating when movement and forced movement come into play, and b) the players are willing to accept the GM's somewhat arbitrary judgements in those situations without quibbling.

[Mercule]

I played 2e without minis and, later, with minis. I preferred it with and embraced the 3e mini-centrism. That said, I'm entirely confident I could run 3e or 4e w/o minis, should that be the group preferrence. It would be a more abstract, narrative combat style, and anyone who tried to get too rules-lawyery about range, position, etc. would disrupt things or require DM management. But, that's exactly the way 1e/2e were without minis -- which is why I decided I liked minis in my games.

[Nebulous]

The minis for me are a full subset of the whole gaming hobby. I love painting, modding them, and coming up with creatures specific to an encounter. My enjoyment of the hobby would be lessened without that aspect.

But do i HAVE to have them? No. We played for years with scraps of paper and a pencil. In fact, our first venture into actual mini-dom featured a Jar Jar Binks lego figure as EVERY single villain, until i got so sick of his face i started buying real miniatures...and i haven't stopped since.

[mattdm]

We tried it for a session. It was one of our first 4E games, so that may have made things worse, but it really felt a bit like playing battleship.

I think it'd be next to impossible to pull off battles with more than a handful of foes. And even in the smaller ones, you'd definitely want to use a whiteboard or something to give a rough sketch of the area as you describe it. This will both give a quick overall impression of the layout and serve as a reference for the "now, who can I see, again?" questions.

[Wightbred]

I've run combats without grids against solos and found it works fine. Mind you we prefer the grids now.

Some links to threads on this I bookmarked previously below. Mearls advice is pretty solid.

Mearls post on this: http://www.enworld.org/forum/4112306-post25.html

Previous thread on this: http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th...bat-rules.html

[Cwheeler]

Originally Posted by Wightbred

I've run combats without grids against solos and found it works fine. Mind you we prefer the grids now.

Some links to threads on this I bookmarked previously below. Mearls advice is pretty solid.

Mearls post on this: http://www.enworld.org/forum/4112306-post25.html

Previous thread on this: http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th...bat-rules.html

Theres a lot of great material in there. Time to experiment!

[vagabundo]

I just changed - last session - to running a lot of combats without mini's. I did it the same way I did 2e combats all in your imagination. I kept track in my head and discribed it to the players. Works for me and worked well last week, all the H1 goblins killed or Splugs Revenge using big dumb meat shields - as I now call it - without using the battlemat once.