D&D 4E I admit it. I don't "get" 4e psionics.

[Obryn]

Don't get me wrong - I understand the mechanics, and could play a psionic character. I understand how augmentation works, too. My issue is a little lighter than that - I don't understand what I should be doing when I stat up a psionic character.

I've tried to build a few - one for each of the major power-point-using classes. Invariably, I end up with a point where I'm unhappy with any of the higher-level At-Wills.

Take the Ardent's Level 1 At-Will Energizing Strike. This is an intensely good power that hands out temporary HPs like candy. Heck; even its augments are good. I simply don't see anything I'd want to trade it out for until way higher levels. And yet, from the way the system is set up, I really feel like I'm missing something with this sentiment.

I also am not coping with what seems to me a very narrow focus of powers. I basically know 3 main tricks + some Dailies and Utilities. I can make those main tricks cooler several times per encounter, but they're still mostly those same 3 tricks.

I think it's a neat system. I just guess I don't understand the decision-making process involved in swapping out low-level At Wills for high-level ones. Can anyone help me out here?

-O

 

[Victim]

Rewarding Strike seems similar to Energizing. For the Ardent, I think Ire Strike and Demoralizing Strike would be worth keeping for a while.

So far, it seems like a lot of the psionic classes are poorly designed though. Psions and Ardents both seem to want to keep their low level at wills for most of the game. They don't seem like they'd scale properly, and it seems like they'd be rather boring as a result.

The whole at will, encounter, daily system seemed like a good idea. It's biggest problems were things like Twin Strike and such, where spamming the same power all the time lent itself to great effectiveness. Changing things to support more use of the same few powers appears to be throwing away much of the advantages of the system.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I'm finding myself wondering what the font size will be on the psionic power cards.

I looked over the PHBIII a bit, and the psionic classes just do not grab me. Augmenting encounters would have worked, but making all encounters at-wills just throws the whole 4E system out of whack.

It is gonna be odd, after a decade of trying to shove psionics down my groups' throats, I'll not be allowing them in my 4E campaigns. I'm not to happy about that.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Augmenting encounters would have worked, but making all encounters at-wills just throws the whole 4E system out of whack.

Huh. I like the fact that they're looking for ways to expand beyond the system as written. I think it's a great, solid system on which to build, but now that we're into PHB3 and beyond, I want to see them pushing the boundaries.

As to how this particular expansion works, I'm neither for nor against it, as I haven't really studied it in-depth or seen it in play.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Don't get me wrong - I understand the mechanics, and could play a psionic character. I understand how augmentation works, too. My issue is a little lighter than that - I don't understand what I should be doing when I stat up a psionic character.

I've tried to build a few - one for each of the major power-point-using classes. Invariably, I end up with a point where I'm unhappy with any of the higher-level At-Wills.

Take the Ardent's Level 1 At-Will Energizing Strike. This is an intensely good power that hands out temporary HPs like candy. Heck; even its augments are good. I simply don't see anything I'd want to trade it out for until way higher levels. And yet, from the way the system is set up, I really feel like I'm missing something with this sentiment.

I also am not coping with what seems to me a very narrow focus of powers. I basically know 3 main tricks + some Dailies and Utilities. I can make those main tricks cooler several times per encounter, but they're still mostly those same 3 tricks.

I think it's a neat system. I just guess I don't understand the decision-making process involved in swapping out low-level At Wills for high-level ones. Can anyone help me out here?

-O

One thing to consider - maybe it is actually intentional? Or at least there is nothging wrong with it. See these At-Wills as the standard 2 1st level at-wills you get with every other class. You would keep them around basically forever, too. The only difference is that they also have an encounter power in form of augment attached to it - which might be designed to be worth keeping around just like that at-will part itself.

I say maybe, because I am not entirely convinced, either. If the low level benefits of a power are the same as high level benefits, wouldn't this mean it's either under-powered at high levels or over-powered at low levels? Or does it strike exactly in the balance point between both by granting benefits that are equally good at high and low levels?

 

[Jhaelen]

I also am not coping with what seems to me a very narrow focus of powers. I basically know 3 main tricks + some Dailies and Utilities. I can make those main tricks cooler several times per encounter, but they're still mostly those same 3 tricks

Well, that's what I've been thinking, as well. I think the augmentation mechanism is cool, but only three at-wills?

Generally, when designing characters I'm looking for ways to expand my options, i.e. get more powers, rather than fewer.

Still, it seems to model fairly well how psionics worked in 3e:
Psionic characters knew few powers, but could use them quite often unless they were always augmenting them fully.

I think even more than other classes, I'd have to test the psionic classes in actual play to figure out if I like them.

The one thing I liked least in PHB3 were the hybrid rules involving psionic classes. They complicate the process tremendously.

 

[DracoSuave]

One thing with all three psionic characters, is they still have some good class feature powers on top of their at-will loadout.

Ardent Alacrity and Ardent Outrage are both good encounter powers to have, either one can turn the tide of a battle.

Battle Resistance or Speed of Thought are both awesome in the hands of a Battlemind

Distract is -amazing- as is Forceful Push, and the effects -scale-.

I dunno, they're all good, they just use a different way to get there. As well, they get more encounter-power-level goodness than others to make up for the lack of flexibility, so it all works out in the wash.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Well, that's what I've been thinking, as well. I think the augmentation mechanism is cool, but only three at-wills?

Generally, when designing characters I'm looking for ways to expand my options, i.e. get more powers, rather than fewer.

Well, 3 at-wills is more than most have. Spending the full power points, you'd be able to use all 3 as encounter powers ... giving you the same number of encounter powers as most have. You also have the ability to use them at 'half power' and get twice as many "encounter powers", the half-powers often being a variation that is useful in only some situations.

The big expansion of option comes in the form of:

(a) If one of the augmented powers is clearly the best (in this situation) you can use that one over and over again

(b) You aren't wasting an encounter power on something that will only come up once in a while, because the full augment should be usable every encounter (as should the at-will), but when the half-augment comes up, it may be better in that particular situation than the full augment, and you'll be able to use it more often.

On top of that, if you keep the lower level at-wills into higher levels, you still gain more power points but the cost doesn't increase. So you may rather have low level at-wills that you can augment more often. Most classes don't have the option of giving up your high level encounter powers for multiple uses of a lower level encounter power.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Maybe a simpler system would have been stick with 1-2 augment cost and scaling better... and giving out less pps...

but without playing, you can´t say is it is over or underpowered...

the only thing that seems silly is at wills not scaling at epic... but maybe it is a balance factor...

 

[Obryn]

I'm finding myself wondering what the font size will be on the psionic power cards.

On the character builder, each Augment is its own card. So no worries on font sizes, there.

It is gonna be odd, after a decade of trying to shove psionics down my groups' throats, I'll not be allowing them in my 4E campaigns. I'm not to happy about that.

I wouldn't ban them. In fact, I'd be excited to see them in play! Maybe it would help me better understand the system. As for balance - I have no concerns there, so far; I think it's a bit unfair to pre-emptively ban them without giving them a fair shot.

Huh. I like the fact that they're looking for ways to expand beyond the system as written. I think it's a great, solid system on which to build, but now that we're into PHB3 and beyond, I want to see them pushing the boundaries.

As to how this particular expansion works, I'm neither for nor against it, as I haven't really studied it in-depth or seen it in play.

Ditto. I think it's great to see the 4e design team really stretch the boundaries. But, like you, I am kinda on the fence here...

I think it's the limitation of 3 At-Wills which is really hurting my brain... And a failure to grasp what makes some higher-level At-Wills superior to the lower-level ones, rather than just simply more expensive.

-O