WotC's Epic Adventures

In the past week I've started digging into the E-series of epic-level adventures WotC has published for 4E:


(^ Links to Amazon that will make me rich if you click them.)

I'll be running a group through these starting this fall, after another player has finished running a Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying adventure. The players will start with new 21st-level characters.

Have you played or read these? What are your thoughts?

Let me summarize each and give my take on these works by Bruce R. Cordell (all), Chris Sims (E1), Chris Tulach (E2), and Scott Fitzgerald Gray (E3).

Spoiler Alert!

E1 Death's Reach: [sblock]The players travel through Zvomarana, the Temple of Temples, to reach Letherna, Realm of the Raven Queen. There they speak face to face with the Raven Queen herself, who tasks them with finding out why souls due her are instead held by Death's Reach. Death's Reach was a central battleground in the Dawn War between primordials and gods. The players will have to find their way through this tainted core of the Shadowfell, which is strewn with the debris of the Dawn War and where the living were not meant to tred. During this journey they discover Orcus is attempting to raise the primordial Timesus from its Reliquary to become a weapon of Orcus. In the process he has threatened the stability of the entire planar order.

The players will encounter the Raven Queen herself, an Aspect of Orcus, liches and dracoliches, the Blackstar Host and Astral Warwings, a "Beholder Death Emperor", and Orcus's exarch Arantham. Several traps will test the players and there is an artifact to be found, along with several powerful magic items.

Speaking with the god of death face-to-face, journeying to a plane of the dead where the primordials fought the gods at the dawn of time, and combating an aspect of the god of undeath and his right-hand-human is epic.
[/sblock]

If there is anything to criticize in E1, it is a railroad and some of the encounters are populated by a motley assortment of creatures
(Rakshasas in Death's Reach?)
.

E2 Kingdom of the Ghouls: [sblock]Orcus is close to holding the weapon--a primordial in stasis--he seeks, but has not yet woken it. The adventure begins with the adventurers traveling to Sigil as they attempt to intercept the primordial before it can be used. The Ghoul King is assisting Orcus in the transport in order to curry favor and hopefully elevate his status to the new god of death once the Raven Queen is deposed.

The players will encounter angels, devils, demons, and the undead. There's a death knight, a gibbering orb that gives me bad dreams, and so many ghouls the players may never want to watch a zombie movie ever again. Of course, if they get that far, the player's have their chance to take down the Ghoul King, his pet balor, flying skull guards, and lich minions.

The landscape is literally horrifying. I'm a particular fan of the Bridge of Bones, a trap whose flavor text says "The iron-hard bone doors slam shut, and the skull face in the floor begins to spray blood in fountains that scour the ceiling", and the Ghoul King's Court of Teeth which I won't spoil.

An artifact will enable the players to easily jump between planes.

On paper this doesn't sound as epic as E1. But keep in mind that every battle is not only for the players' souls, but the souls of the entire world.[/sblock]

This adventure corrects the two major flaws of the first: there are several side quests written into the adventure so it is not as much of a railroad (and it starts in Sigil--railroad that!); and the encounters all feature creatures that make sense and are awesome.

This might be the best undead adventure ever.

E3 Prince of Undeath: [sblock]The players take control of a spelljammer, invade the palace of Orcus, travel to the bottom of the universe, and fight him to the death in the court of the Raven Queen with the fate of all souls and the existence of the world and planes as we know it hanging in the balance.

Oh, and they have to get past a primordial on the way there.
[/sblock]

That is not epic. That is :):):):)ing epic. If you don't have Metallica's "Master of Puppets" or Carl Orff's "Carmina Burana" blasting on a loop during the final battle I think you are doing it wrong.

This module makes it worth pre-ordering the gargantuan Orcus mini.

If I have a problem with this adventure, it's only that some of the Abyssal creatures are too abstract and horrifying and don't have a description, picture, or mini to do them justice.

Not only do I think these published 4E adventures are cool and not only do I think they take advantage of the other published 4E materials and not only do I look forward to running them, but I think the E-series are some of the most epic first-party adventures ever released for any edition of D&D.

A bold claim, I know. But I honestly think these thing are great: worth your money, worth your time, and worth making 21st-level 4E characters just to run them.


(Note: This was originally a response to "The Plane Above - the Glorantha-fication of D&D?" that I spent enough time on to think it deserved it's own thread.)
 

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I'm planning on running that set as well once my group finishes the Revenge of the Giants. I personally think that it reads really really well. It's clearly an over the top epic adventure, but I think that's really what WotC's goal is for the epic tier.
 


So, what is there in the modules other than endless fights with Orcus and friends?

Did I unwittingly imply that the adventures present nothing but combat encounters?

To be clear:
[sblock]
E1 puts the party in the court of the Raven Queen, E2 in Sigil, and E3 with a spell jammer in the Abyss. The adventures culminate with the players choosing to allow the Raven Queen to be usurped or stopping Orcus.

Each adventure comes with one book dedicated to the setting, the goals, and the obstacles. The second book has encounter details for combat, but many if not most that I've seen so far can be bypassed either through roleplaying or skill checks.[/sblock]

I'm very interested in hearing other peoples'--including yours, Sammael--experiences with the epic tier.
 

I'm currently running the early stages of P3... still a little while before we hit the epic tier. Mind you, I'm very much looking forward to running this series. The basic adventure concepts are fantastic.

The structure will probably still have Way Too Much Combat(tm), but there should be some great role-playing moments - especially with the Raven Queen and Orcus.

Cheers!
 

Pleasepleaseplease tell me your players aren't new to 4e. :) Hopping straight into Epic from a cold start is a fast way to confuse the hell out of everyone!

-O
 

After my Epic Campaign was going for a couple months, E1 came out and stole coincidentally had the same idea as the premise of my campaign: souls being stolen from the Raven Queen. So I bought the module hoping I could use some of it.

But I didn't like it. It was a big railroad with fight after fight. So I didn't use any of it.

E2 sounds much more interesting to me. I'll have to investigate it.
 

I am running E2 right now. My group has 2 PCs who started at level one, and 2 who jumped in at level 11. There are major problems with epic tier play.. at least, there are in my game. These adventures were written before a lot of these new powers and classes came out, and the PCs can make quick work of the encounters as written...

In the fight with the aspect of orcus in Death's Reach... the PCs didn't need to use dailies! Against Orcus!

The ending of Death's Reach left my players rolling their eyes. All that, and the bad guy (who they'd never met before) got away. And what was worse was that they fought him and killed him in the first encounter of the next adventure! Unnecessary, IMO.

Another huge problem is the fact that my PCs saw how much necrotic damage was flying around in Nightwyrm Fortress and bought magic items to resist it. Virtually my entire party has resist 15 necrotic, and the vast majority of the monsters in E1 and E2 use necrotic damage.

If you're going to DM these adventures, you might need to spend a fair amount of time beefing up your monsters. And be ready for looonnnggg strings of combats.
 

Yeah...

These adventures do sound very cool. Based just on the blurbs, they should be awesome.

I haven't found that to be quite the case, personally. We just finished E1, and are starting E2. Death's Reach was a long, railroady combat-fest, and didn't feel much more epic or intriguing than Keep on the Shadowfell or the average LFR adventure.

It was also super easy.

How easy, you ask?

Well, we played through it with two PCs. (We had a third for a couple of sessions, but we definitely didn't need him.) Two PCs, and the DM didn't scale down the adventure. In fact, about halfway through, he started adding stuff. No joke. He was scaling it up, because the two of us were stomping all over everything, and never feeling any real risk or threat. Also, we had no leader. It was just a defender (my Warden) and a striker. (Sometimes a Monk, sometimes a Sorcerer. Both, for a couple of the sessions, which felt like insane overkill.)

The hardest fight of the entire adventure for me, personally, was [sblock] the very first encounter when you get to Svomarana, because the priestess lady there, Hertrud, had an at-will ranged attack versus Will that stunned until end of her next turn with no save. So my Warden was stun-locked for the first five rounds of the battle, leaving the Monk to solo the encounter for five rounds until she finally stopped stunning me. [/sblock]

But even that one wasn't particularly hard. I never dropped to 0 hit points in the whole adventure (remember, I had no healer besides myself). I had a whole bunch of daily abilities that I literally never used a single time in the whole adventure. Like the ones that gave me regeneration, or let me get back up when dropping to 0.

We started at level 21, built by the book, and hit level 24 after the last encounter of E1 (which the DM had scaled up to a level 29 encounter, and we still trounced it with no tension at all).

Epic characters are insanely, stupidly powerful, and this adventure does not begin to take that into consideration.

As for the story of the module, well, I didn't find it nearly as cool, immersive, or interesting as the blurb makes it sound. It felt like a pretty typical, flat 4E WotC adventure to me. Lots of railroad, little explanation or depth to what's going on, tons of forced combats with whatever high-level monsters they pulled out of the books. None of the villains seemed very interesting or cool, and they all went down like we were beating up kids.

This isn't to say that I didn't have fun. I had a good time, and look forward to continuing the campaign through the end of E3. But it just didn't seem like a particularly special or amazing adventure. It wasn't horrible or anything, it just wasn't "Wow!"

I own the adventure, and have looked through and read some of it, now that we're done playing it. It reads better than it played, in my opinion. But it looks like it could have been more fun and cool than it was for us. I suspect that a lot of the blandness of our experience could be attributed to our DM, who isn't terrible, but isn't really all that great either.

I think that an exceptional DM could make the adventure shine, that the basic concept and framework could be used to run a very cool epic adventure. But as written, I don't know that it really equips a mediocre or poor DM to run anything but a typical two-dimensional 4E WotC slugfest with simply bigger numbers and a nice-sounding idea as the backdrop.

In any case, you'd probably have to do some work personalizing it, adjusting the encounters, filling in the story and the details about NPCs and such. Which to my mind means that it's nothing to write home about.

Also, if you're going to try to DM for epic characters, be prepared for how ludicrous they can be. The designers of this module's encounters obviously had no idea, which is actually exactly how I've found every published 4E WotC adventure, including the laughable LFR snoozefests, to be thus far. And my friends and I are NOT the total CharOp absurd powergamers, either. We built strong, but not "cheesy" or super min-maxed characters. It could have been much worse.

Mostly, I guess I'd probably say it was our DM's fault that the adventure wasn't all that exciting. And our own, for making too powerful of characters, and not really insisting on delving deep into the roleplay enough. A different DM, and more effort to engage with the story and make more casual characters on the part of the players could make Death's Reach a lot more fun. But then, it might not.
 
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Yeah...


It was also super easy.

How easy, you ask?

Well, we played through it with two PCs. (We had a third for a couple of sessions, but we definitely didn't need him.) Two PCs, and the DM didn't scale down the adventure. In fact, about halfway through, he started adding stuff.


Wow... 2 pcs... something seriously wasn't working there. That's crazy!!! And no healer? What was happening that made you so invulnerable to the monster's attacks exactly. What do you think was going wrong from your point of view? I'd like to avoid this kind of thing if my group ever reaches these levels.
 
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