Rogue Sneak Attack Rules Question(s)!

[Klattic]

Yay!

Ok, first scenario, the enemy stands up from being prone and provokes an attack of opportunity. Does he grant combat advantage for that attack because he was prone, or does the attack take place after he stood up?

Next question, a rogue encounter power reads:

Effect: You knock the target prone
Hit: 2W + Dex

In that order. So the question here is rather the target grants combat advantage because the "Hit" is written after the "Effect", or does not grant combat advantage because when the power was executed the target was not prone.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Unferth]

Yay!

Ok, first scenario, the enemy stands up from being prone and provokes an attack of opportunity.

Standing up from prone does not provoke opportunity attacks.

Does he grant combat advantage for that attack because he was prone, or does the attack take place after he stood up?

Opportunity attacks take place before the action that triggers them. So if, for instance, a target provokes an opportunity attack by moving out of a square in which it's flanked, a flanking rogue will still have combat advantage for the opportunity attack.

Next question, a rogue encounter power reads:

Effect: You knock the target prone
Hit: 2W + Dex

In that order. So the question here is rather the target grants combat advantage because the "Hit" is written after the "Effect", or does not grant combat advantage because when the power was executed the target was not prone.

Hmm. I'd probably rule that whether or not you have combat advantage for an attack is determined at the start of the attack, before the effect takes place. Unless it explicitly says 'Before the attack...', the way several move-and-attack powers do. But it's not as clearcut as your other question.

 

[mneme]

If an enemy provokes an OA for standing up, yes, the attack will be made while they are still prone.

However, without a special power (reaving axe slayer, frex), standing up doesn't draw an OA in 4th edition D&D.

For the second question, I believe the answer is no. You do the bits of the power in order -- which means first you make the attack roll (no CA), then you knock the target prone, then you get to deal damage (and any bonus damage on prone will kick in, as the target is prone at that point).

 

[Klattic]

[No message]

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Yay!

Ok, first scenario, the enemy stands up from being prone and provokes an attack of opportunity. Does he grant combat advantage for that attack because he was prone, or does the attack take place after he stood up?

Generally you don't provoke OAs while standing up. If for any reasons he does provoke an OA I guess you would have CA b/c OAs are immediate interrupts so they happen before the triggering action, in this case before standing up.

Next question, a rogue encounter power reads:

Effect: You knock the target prone
Hit: 2W + Dex

In that order. So the question here is rather the target grants combat advantage because the "Hit" is written after the "Effect", or does not grant combat advantage because when the power was executed the target was not prone.

Thanks for the help!

You would have CA for the hit entry (the damage roll) b/c the effect entry comes before the hit entry (remeber that only melee attacks against prone targets get CA). But I can only guees that it would not apply to your attack roll b/c in your example no attack entry is listed after the effect entry.

 

[Klattic]

Ok, sorry about that,

The attack is Jumping Blade Assault from Martial Powers 2.

Thanks for the help so far.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Effect: You knock the target prone
Hit: 2W + Dex

In that order. So the question here is rather the target grants combat advantage because the "Hit" is written after the "Effect", or does not grant combat advantage because when the power was executed the target was not prone.

Thanks for the help!

This gets into some unanswered questions about 4e rules. Remember, there is an Attack: line that actually describes what happens when you roll to-hit. The Hit: line deals with damage.

So the real question has to do with state transitions in 4e. Consider, the target is NOT prone and thus not granting CA when the attack is announced and the to-hit roll is made (assuming the Attack: line came first). Thus you didn't have CA at that point and couldn't get the +2 to-hit bonus for CA.

Second the target is knocked prone. Now it can grant CA, but does that happen instantly? Does it even matter? Do you have to have CA from the start of using the power to get Sneak Attack damage? We don't know. The rules simply do not tell us how these kinds of transitions work or what happens when states change in the middle of resolving a power.

It will be entirely up to the DM. I might note however that there are very few powers that do this kind of thing, probably for exactly this sort of reason, they always create ambiguities. A lot of feats can also create similar issues.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Thanks for the info. I read the power. I read the sneak attack entry in the latest update, here is the relevant part:

Once per round, when you have combat advantage against an enemy and hit that enemy with an attack that uses a crossbow, a light blade, or a sling, the attack deals extra damage.

So having CA before the attack roll is made is required to gain the damage bonus of sneak attack on the damage roll.

If a power/feat/etc. has the wording "when you damage a prone enemy ..." the effect line of said power would be more useful.

With RAW I say that power knocks just prone, no sneak attack on the attack that the power grants (except you had CA before you made the attack roll for any reasons).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Thanks for the info. I read the power. I read the sneak attack entry in the latest update, here is the relevant part:



So having CA before the attack roll is made is required to gain the damage bonus of sneak attack on the damage roll.

If a power/feat/etc. has the wording "when you damage a prone enemy ..." the effect line of said power would be more useful.

With RAW I say that power knocks just prone, no sneak attack on the attack that the power grants (except you had CA before you made the attack roll for any reasons).

Yeah, that sounds about right to me. I didn't go back and read the SA text, but I agree with your interpretation.

 

[mysticknight232]

I'm not 100% sure, but i thought you could only deal sneak attack dmg once per round unless otherwise stated or unless you have a feat that says something different. Assuming i'm right (please tell me if i'm otherwise) that you can only deal sneak attack dmg once per round, then your first question about dealing sneak attack dmg with and OA would only matter if you didn't deal sneak attack dmg at an earlier point during the current round and only if you had CA against the target.