D&D 4E Trying 4E Again

[Stormonu]

For the 3rd time, I'm going to be attempting a 4E campaign. I just got my hands on the MM3 and HS1 - The Slaying Stone. Both have piqued my interest in giving 4E another shot. It's looking like I'll have 3 players - one being my 9-year-old son. I'm probably looking at a group that is going to consist of a Dragonborn Fighter (or Paladin) [my son], an Elf or Eladrin Psionicist [my wife] of some sort and a Halfling Ranger (or Rogue) [my sister-in-law].

However, I have found through my past two attempts I've got a real love/hate relation with this version of the game and I'm looking for ways to maximize the positive aspects of 4E in my game. I'm basically looking for help so I don't set myself up to fail.

I'm not willing (yet) to put in for a DDI account, until at least I know this is gonna fly. Can the character generator still be used to make 1st-3rd level characters for free? As a note, I have the PHB I-III, MM I-III and the DMG. I'm contemplating adding Treasure Vault I, as it seems to add a lot of variety to gear choices/treasure. I expect these will be the only books I use for this foray into the game.

I glanced at the errata and while there's a lot, it looks minor enough I should be able to not worry with using it - at the very least attempting to incorporate it all would drive me away very quickly. Any advice on anything that I should incorporate as a requirement, errata-wise (I'm thinking like Stealth, which was added into the back of the PHB2 anyway)?

I think my two biggest barriers are my issues with the length of combats (I don't like 2-hour long combats reminiscent of DDM tournaments) and problems I had getting the players (and sometimes myself) to RP, instead of just rush from one combat to the next. Any advice to help in either of these areas I'd appreciate (Slaying Stone looks like it has several more RP opportunities than KotS did, though, so that may help with the latter).

Likewise, I love the ideas of skill challenges, but they give me headaches trying to set them up. Short of buying DMG2, any advice here to help with this - preferably without having to resort to a third-party design (though I'll take it if the WotC ones just don't work)?

Finally, after finishing HS1, any advice on what to run/do next? I'd prefer premade adventures, as I don't have a whole lot of time to devote to 4E and making adventures for it myself. However, I'd rather not get stuck with something like Keep on the Shadowfell.

 

[Shin Okada]

I'm not willing (yet) to put in for a DDI account, until at least I know this is gonna fly. Can the character generator still be used to make 1st-3rd level characters for free? As a note, I have the PHB I-III, MM I-III and the DMG. I'm contemplating adding Treasure Vault I, as it seems to add a lot of variety to gear choices/treasure. I expect these will be the only books I use for this foray into the game.

Sorry but I can't help you in this issue. I am a Macintosh user and thus cannot run the builder without re-booting my MacBook, which I really rarely do. All I can say is that making 1st-leve PC is very easy in 4th-edition. So I do not think you need that kind of tools at all.

I glanced at the errata and while there's a lot, it looks minor enough I should be able to not worry with using it - at the very least attempting to incorporate it all would drive me away very quickly. Any advice on anything that I should incorporate as a requirement, errata-wise (I'm thinking like Stealth, which was added into the back of the PHB2 anyway)?

Not using updates will work, I guess. And yes, using the newest glossary on the latter part of newer PHBs will solve most of the problems. Especially if you start the game from L1. Many of the updates are done to adjust/correct the game balance issues when playing higher level games.

I think my two biggest barriers are my issues with the length of combats (I don't like 2-hour long combats reminiscent of DDM tournaments) and problems I had getting the players (and sometimes myself) to RP, instead of just rush from one combat to the next. Any advice to help in either of these areas I'd appreciate (Slaying Stone looks like it has several more RP opportunities than KotS did, though, so that may help with the latter).

Well, I think 2-hour-long combat is a wide-spread misunderstanding about 4e. Most combat encounters ends within 1 to 1 1/2 hours, especially at lower levels. I am currently running 1 combat encounter per night games using Dungeon Delve, using some online application and Skype. Though online games tend to take longer than off-line games, we always finish each night's game within two hours. We do also playing out-of encounter scenes such as scouting, discussing plans, role-playing, etc. So, combat itself never took 2-hours. And in face-to-face games I run, we usually play for 6 or more hours but also clear at least 4-5 combat encounters and some skill challenges and role-playing.

Likewise, I love the ideas of skill challenges, but they give me headaches trying to set them up. Short of buying DMG2, any advice here to help with this - preferably without having to resort to a third-party design (though I'll take it if the WotC ones just don't work)?

Well, if you are planning to play a sold module, especially a newer one such as HS1, play it as it is. That is the fastest and the easiest way.

Finally, after finishing HS1, any advice on what to run/do next? I'd prefer premade adventures, as I don't have a whole lot of time to devote to 4E and making adventures for it myself. However, I'd rather not get stuck with something like Keep on the Shadowfell.

Why not HS2? But frankly speaking, my 1st-recommendation is, actually, a series of adventures in recent Dungeon Magazines, especially those from Chaos Scar campaign. Typically, each adventures are composed of only 3-4 combat encounter plus extra. Very good for spending a holiday afternoon. Paying subscription fee is, indeed, cheaper than buying several pre-made modules.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

For the 3rd time, I'm going to be attempting a 4E campaign. I just got my hands on the MM3 and HS1 - The Slaying Stone. Both have piqued my interest in giving 4E another shot. It's looking like I'll have 3 players - one being my 9-year-old son. I'm probably looking at a group that is going to consist of a Dragonborn Fighter (or Paladin) [my son], an Elf or Eladrin Psionicist [my wife] of some sort and a Halfling Ranger (or Rogue) [my sister-in-law].

However, I have found through my past two attempts I've got a real love/hate relation with this version of the game and I'm looking for ways to maximize the positive aspects of 4E in my game. I'm basically looking for help so I don't set myself up to fail.

I'm not willing (yet) to put in for a DDI account, until at least I know this is gonna fly. Can the character generator still be used to make 1st-3rd level characters for free? As a note, I have the PHB I-III, MM I-III and the DMG. I'm contemplating adding Treasure Vault I, as it seems to add a lot of variety to gear choices/treasure. I expect these will be the only books I use for this foray into the game.

As far as I know (I'm a DDI subscriber) the Character Builder does level 1 to 3 for free. Also it would have the most updated versions of the powers. I assume that the download also downloads the most recent data for powers and classes from the Compendium but I have not verified it myself. Others may know better.

I glanced at the errata and while there's a lot, it looks minor enough I should be able to not worry with using it - at the very least attempting to incorporate it all would drive me away very quickly. Any advice on anything that I should incorporate as a requirement, errata-wise (I'm thinking like Stealth, which was added into the back of the PHB2 anyway)?

I think my two biggest barriers are my issues with the length of combats (I don't like 2-hour long combats reminiscent of DDM tournaments) and problems I had getting the players (and sometimes myself) to RP, instead of just rush from one combat to the next. Any advice to help in either of these areas I'd appreciate (Slaying Stone looks like it has several more RP opportunities than KotS did, though, so that may help with the latter).

Likewise, I love the ideas of skill challenges, but they give me headaches trying to set them up. Short of buying DMG2, any advice here to help with this - preferably without having to resort to a third-party design (though I'll take it if the WotC ones just don't work)?

Finally, after finishing HS1, any advice on what to run/do next? I'd prefer premade adventures, as I don't have a whole lot of time to devote to 4E and making adventures for it myself. However, I'd rather not get stuck with something like Keep on the Shadowfell.

I have not looked at the more recent module so I cannot offer any advice there nor on slikk challanges. I have DMG2 but not read it all through, I need to look at skill challenges again also.

Also not sure what to add to regarding grind other than what is already said in other threads.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I'm not willing (yet) to put in for a DDI account, until at least I know this is gonna fly. Can the character generator still be used to make 1st-3rd level characters for free? As a note, I have the PHB I-III, MM I-III and the DMG. I'm contemplating adding Treasure Vault I, as it seems to add a lot of variety to gear choices/treasure. I expect these will be the only books I use for this foray into the game.

As I understand it, PHB3 classes aren't in the free character builder.

I glanced at the errata and while there's a lot, it looks minor enough I should be able to not worry with using it - at the very least attempting to incorporate it all would drive me away very quickly. Any advice on anything that I should incorporate as a requirement, errata-wise (I'm thinking like Stealth, which was added into the back of the PHB2 anyway)?

99% of the errata isn't necessary if you're a sensible DM who's willing to tell your players that they're not allowed to use infinite damage combos.

The stealth stuff is needed if stealth in combat crops up though, because the original stealth rules were incredibly hard to read or use.

Watch out for the skill challenges too: as written in the basic books, they're incredibly easy to fail.

My suggestion would be to have a flick through the errata, understand why it was made, and then (apart from stealth and skill challenges) never need it again.

I think my two biggest barriers are my issues with the length of combats (I don't like 2-hour long combats reminiscent of DDM tournaments) and problems I had getting the players (and sometimes myself) to RP, instead of just rush from one combat to the next. Any advice to help in either of these areas I'd appreciate (Slaying Stone looks like it has several more RP opportunities than KotS did, though, so that may help with the latter).

If you want quick combats
*use lots of minions
*don't use soldiers

If you use published modules, simply switch every soldier for an appropriate quantity of minions. They server more-or-less the same role (stopping the PCs from simply running to the back lines and smashing the artillery), but they're not grindy.

Likewise, I love the ideas of skill challenges, but they give me headaches trying to set them up. Short of buying DMG2, any advice here to help with this - preferably without having to resort to a third-party design (though I'll take it if the WotC ones just don't work)?

One possibility is to simply not use them. Skill challenges had a few goals
1. get everyone to contribute outside of combat
2. set a finite limit on the amount of skill-rolling a situation would take to resolve
3. set a structure for non-combat encounters

If your players want to contribute, you're happy to have non-combat events run a bit longer and be a bit more freeform, simply read the scenario for the skill challenge, then resolve it the old-fashioned way: get people to describe what they do, roll dice for success, and once you as a DM are satisfied that the situation is resolved, it's done.

Finally, after finishing HS1, any advice on what to run/do next? I'd prefer premade adventures, as I don't have a whole lot of time to devote to 4E and making adventures for it myself. However, I'd rather not get stuck with something like Keep on the Shadowfell.

Yeah, if you don't have time to rework it all, don't go with KoTS. Apparently war of the burning sky is good?

 

[Stormonu]

Well, I think 2-hour-long combat is a wide-spread misunderstanding about 4e. Most combat encounters ends within 1 to 1 1/2 hours, especially at lower levels. I am currently running 1 combat encounter per night games using Dungeon Delve, using some online application and Skype. Though online games tend to take longer than off-line games, we always finish each night's game within two hours. We do also playing out-of encounter scenes such as scouting, discussing plans, role-playing, etc. So, combat itself never took 2-hours. And in face-to-face games I run, we usually play for 6 or more hours but also clear at least 4-5 combat encounters and some skill challenges and role-playing.

Unfortunately, I have (loosely) timed this from my previous attempts, because the combat lengths were bothering me. This will be a leisurely game with "family" - who have minimal/no experience with 4E, and without some sort of tweaking I'm expecting the combat time to match or exceed those I experienced with my normal gaming group. (I'd been half-way contemplating making 4E combat into a skill challenge, but that's a lot of work & testing).

Why not HS2? But frankly speaking, my 1st-recommendation is, actually, a series of adventures in recent Dungeon Magazines, especially those from Chaos Scar campaign. Typically, each adventures are composed of only 3-4 combat encounter plus extra. Very good for spending a holiday afternoon. Paying subscription fee is, indeed, cheaper than buying several pre-made modules.

Actually, I wasn't aware HS2 was out yet...

I'd be willing to try Chaos Scar or just about anything else, as long as it comes with a good recommendation.

As far as I have heard from reviews, it sounds like I would probably want to steer clear of the Scales of War series and H1-3 and P1-3. I've had first-hand knowledge of KotS (H1) - and my experience with that module drove me away from playing 4E the first time, so I am very guarded about which adventure I select to run.

 

[Jack99]

Unfortunately, I have (loosely) timed this from my previous attempts, because the combat lengths were bothering me. This will be a leisurely game with "family" - who have minimal/no experience with 4E, and without some sort of tweaking I'm expecting the combat time to match or exceed those I experienced with my normal gaming group. (I'd been half-way contemplating making 4E combat into a skill challenge, but that's a lot of work & testing).



Actually, I wasn't aware HS2 was out yet...

I'd be willing to try Chaos Scar or just about anything else, as long as it comes with a good recommendation.

As far as I have heard from reviews, it sounds like I would probably want to steer clear of the Scales of War series and H1-3 and P1-3. I've had first-hand knowledge of KotS (H1) - and my experience with that module drove me away from playing 4E the first time, so I am very guarded about which adventure I select to run.

HS2 is out, but much more linear than HS1. It has a cool backstory and an awesome final battle, but it might be hard to tweak down to 3 players.

There is a lot of Chaos Scar stuff by now, all being short 2-4 enc long, and most being good or better. They require a DDI account to acccess. I know you said no DDI, but you might want to consider a $10 1 month sub, to get the fully updated CB and all the Chaos Scar adventures. Still cheaper than buying say HS2 and much cheaper.

 

[mkill]

I'm probably looking at a group that is going to consist of a Dragonborn Fighter (or Paladin) [my son], an Elf or Eladrin Psionicist [my wife] of some sort and a Halfling Ranger (or Rogue) [my sister-in-law].

This group does not have a leader. Make sure they have a good supply of healing potions.

I'm not willing (yet) to put in for a DDI account, until at least I know this is gonna fly.

A one-months subscription is what, 10 bucks? You can get by without, of course, but as a DM I like to get monsters from the database before the encounter and print them out.

I glanced at the errata and while there's a lot, it looks minor enough I should be able to not worry with using it

I agree. Just play by the book. Most of the errata exists to close loopholes and revise powers and items that accidently got too powerful. It doesn't look like you need to worry about that kind of thing.

I think my two biggest barriers are my issues with the length of combats (I don't like 2-hour long combats reminiscent of DDM tournaments)

You have a small party of only 3 PCs. Most encounters are designed for 5 PCs, so simple math will tell you that your group only has 60% of the necessary damage output to end encounters quickly. This means encounters will roughly take twice as long.

The easiest countermeasure is to half the hp of all monsters. Combats will be over fast enough, but you don't take away anything that makes the game fun.

problems I had getting the players (and sometimes myself) to RP, instead of just rush from one combat to the next.

Use the NPCs in the module to interact with the PCs, preferably in first person. Don't let them get away with "I talk to the bartender to get information", make the players say what their PCs say.

Don't treat NPCs as mere information vending machines. Have them talk about things that are not directly related to the adventure. Talk about the weather, gossip and personal problems, or have them crack jokes. Let the NPCs be interested in the heroes ("Oh, you're from Homlet? I have a brother there!")

Likewise, I love the ideas of skill challenges, but they give me headaches trying to set them up.

The important part is to use the skill challenge as a natural part of the story. The PCs want to achieve something (convince the king to release a prisoner, disable a complicated trap, build a raft...) and this is handled by not just one skill check, but a whole series. You don't announce "uhh, we're in a skill challenge now", you just let the PCs describe what they do to solve the problem.

With each step they take, you ask them for a skill check. And then, it's either success after X successful checks or failure after Y failed checks.

Just treat it as a background process that gives you as DM a way to keep track of a team effort.

 

[draquila]

Yeah, if you don't have time to rework it all, don't go with KoTS. Apparently war of the burning sky is good?

There seems to be some dislike for KoTS. Can anyone elaborate on the problems? I was considering running it after my current first-ever-foray-into-D&D campaign. Thanks!

 

[AllisterH]

May I offer an off the wall suggestion.

Try the site-based adventure/supplement Hammerfast.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

There seems to be some dislike for KoTS. Can anyone elaborate on the problems? I was considering running it after my current first-ever-foray-into-D&D campaign. Thanks!

I thought I was ok but there were too many fights, fortunately my crowd did not completely explore the dungeon.
However, the complaint I have heard are too many fights, not enough detail on the town and the NPCs poor hooks.