Major Changes from 2008 to Today?

[Truename]

All the sturm und drang over Essentials got me thinking: what exactly are the major changes to 4e since it came out? I'm not talking about minor changes that only affect certain builds (like power errata) or additional options (like backgrounds, themes, racial stats, or Essentials classes), but significant changes to the core rules that affected existing characters and adventures.

This is what I can think of. What else has changed?

• Skill DCs. From too hard, to too easy, and now finally to "just right" in the Rules Compendium, the DCs have bounced all over the place. The funny thing is, it seems like a fairly simple problem that just didn't get the love it needed from the beginning.

• Stealth and Hidden. Hoo boy, did that start badly. Especially since the Rogue relies so heavily on combat advantage and didn't have many other options for getting it when 4e came out.

• Conditions. Mostly rules clean up, but I still make a point of having the errata'd conditions at the table.

• Monster Math. Like skill DCs, grindy and boring monsters is another core math issue that took a long time for WotC work out. Unlike the skill DCs, we're now left with a legacy of monsters that range from awesome to ineffectual in the same level. I hope they errata or at least retire the broken ones.

• Treasure Rarity and Magic Item Dailies. The limit on magic item dailies has been replaced by the new treasure rarity system. Unlike the other items on this list, this seems less like a rules fix and more like an aesthetic choice. The previous way wasn't broken, just fiddly and gamist.

• Skill Challenges. Yet another math issue. The initial published version of skill challenges allowed for variable numbers of failures. Then they switched to a constant "three strikes and you're out" system. In the Rules Compendium, they add the concept of "advantages" for higher-complexity challenges and provide specific difficulty level guidance. This latter concept was arguably part of published skill challenges all along, but now it looks like the math has been formalized.

Given all the complaints about updates and half editions, there must be more that's changed than this. What am I missing?

PS: Please don't turn this into another essentialdition war.

 

[Riastlin]

In terms of major changes within the parameters you've provided, I think the only other major change would be the general change with regard to surgeless healing.

I think the complaints come largely from two categories:

1. Although many of the changes are the "specific builds" that you mention, there have been so many of those changes that there are few characters that have not been affected by them. The result is that practically every player has been impacted by them (and continues to be if they look at the books instead of the character builder). Of course, not all of the changes were bad, but be that as it may, its nearly to the point where there isn't much use in looking at the powers in PHB1 because so many have been tweaked.

2. Essentials theories. Essentials, while its compatible with 4th Ed. brings with it some clearly different theories in the guise of magic items, and, to an extent, class structures. Obviously nothing in essentials does away with dailies, etc., but I think the fear was that it would. Many of these fears are being alleviated (imho) by those who have now actually experienced Essentials, but there certainly seems to have been a shift in thinking at WotC. Again, whether the shift is good or not is open to debate though that is not the point of this thread.

Just my 2 coppers.

 

[Truename]

In terms of major changes within the parameters you've provided, I think the only other major change would be the general change with regard to surgeless healing.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with this. More details?

 

[Dice4Hire]

Sorry, I'm not familiar with this. More details?

Take Astral Seal for an example. With that put on an enemy, the party could all attack that creature and get a few hps, plus healer's lore, plus a feat or PP feature bonus, or some additions from various magical items. With even a little work the party could get back low double digits in hit points with each successful attack.

Add in powers whose written 2-3 points back a round turned into dozen or so points a round and parties did not even really need surges, or not many at all.

 

[Riastlin]

Sorry, I'm not familiar with this. More details?

Surgeless healing in general was nerfed. Most items, feats, class features etc., that gave bonuses to HP recovered were changed to only give those bonuses when the target used a healing surge. Additionally, some powers like Unicorn's Touch were changed from Encounters to Dailies.

 

[TerraDave]

PS: Please don't turn this into another essentialdition war.

What, war?

Its funny, the surgeless healing nerf is a good example of something that did have a big in game impact for us (and since I am the DM, I approve). In general I would add:

Cummulative updating of powers, etc: A lot of common builds and tactics have now been touched on. Each may seem smallish, but they do add up and touch a lot of charecters in play.

Retrofication: I guess more an overarching theme, but as we talk about in the "give backs" thread, but there are a lot of changes to make things feel a little more like before 08.

Looser interpretation of power structure: PHB III opened the door to this, but its one thing to do it with say a psion, and another with a rogue or fighter. Big, big change from 08.

Entirely new core class versions: This follows from above. The war priest in '10 is a much easier charecter to make work then the 08 strong cleric. The slayer is easier to play then the 08 fighter (though the 08 fighter has its strengths). And I think the impact of this will be even greater in the next heroes of book. We have seen (part of) the druid, and the 08 warlock and paladin also had issues, big issues.

Book format: I really think this counts for something. We have never really had a format for D&D like this. I just don't mean soft back, but the whole thing. Never had the PHB split (from the start), never had a monster boxed set, or a DM box set instead of a DMG...

 

[Truename]

What, war?

Most of the things you mentioned illuminate Wizard's current direction, but other than the cumulative updating of powers, I wouldn't count them as things that affected existing characters and adventures.

With the change to monster math, for example, part of my prep now involves checking the monsters in my published adventure and fixing their damage when appropriate. Similarly, I update the DCs in the adventure. I don't have to make these mods, but the old numbers were broken and need to be fixed for the game to play as well as I want it to.

On the other hand, I and my players can and do just ignore the new class builds.

 

[Lord_Blacksteel]

Although many of the changes are the "specific builds" that you mention, there have been so many of those changes that there are few characters that have not been affected by them. The result is that practically every player has been impacted by them (and continues to be if they look at the books instead of the character builder). Of course, not all of the changes were bad, but be that as it may, its nearly to the point where there isn't much use in looking at the powers in PHB1 because so many have been tweaked.

I kept seeing this on boards and blogs so I went through and counted powers & errata in the errata documents and just under 10% of the PHB 1 powers have been touched by errata. So it's not as massive a change as some people think. Even then, some of that is just wording changes to clarify things, so the number of powers mechanically changed is even less than that. Changes, but not enough to make it useless.

 

[TerraDave]

Most of the things you mentioned illuminate Wizard's current direction, but other than the cumulative updating of powers, I wouldn't count them as things that affected existing characters and adventures.

Oh sure, and conversion for PCs is automated (though as you note this is not true for monsters or stat blocks in adventures, and this is a PitA).

And if the question is, can I use some of this in my game without derailing it: obviously. Even I am willing to admit that (again, what war?).

BUT, there is change that goes beyond our imediate games and will reverberate for years to come.