What is this I don't even

[Rechan]

So, I've not looked at any of the Essentials lines. I took a break from D&D. I see the Heroes of Shadow in a bookstore, I pick it up, and I'm... completely at a loss.

Can someone explain how the Essentials characters work? I noticed that the Warlock for instance has no Curse. No curse at all. There's no picking at wills - I'm used to that with Warlocks, but not with the other classes - the Paladin (blackguard) only had one At-will that I noticed!

And then the Hexblade... I didn't even get it. Ok it looks like a build for the Warlock, but what the heck is there? It seems to require you to use a scourge (and not any other kind of blade)?

Where are the encounter powers? Do you net get one at 1st, 3rd, 7th, etc?

What the heck is going on here.

 

[wayne62682]

From the little I know (coming back to D&D myself) the Essentials stuff are a new way of doing things; you don't get encounter/daily powers you get certain abilities you can use all the time; like an Essentials Rogue ("Thief") gets modified melee basic attacks that kind of function like a non-Essentials Rogue's At-Wills, but they don't get the same level of customization.

It's kind of weird to me, too. One thing to keep in mind is that they are supplemental rules, they don't replace it. You can still play a regular class, OR an essentials class, but not both (I don't think?), meaning you can't choose some stuff from the non-E class and some from the Essentials class, but they can be run together at the same table and there's not really a difference.

 

[OnlineDM]

These new builds are, well, new builds. Very new, in some cases - the Binder Warlock is a controller rather than a striker, hence the lack of a warlock's curse. The Hexblade Warlock gets a fixed bonus to damage rolls with its pact weapon instead of dealing with a curse for bonus damage (this is the Pact Reward feature).

If it helps, you can think of these as entirely new classes with different levels of flexibility and choice. If you're very familiar with PHB1 and PHB2 classes, the new builds might feel very bizarre. You're expecting to have at least 4 at-will powers to choose from, plus the usual at-will / encounter / daily / utility power structure. In some of these new builds you might not get any choices at all in terms of at-wills, and some classes don't have daily attack powers. They still work, but they're a different design approach.

If you're interested in the Hexblade, it was originally introduced in Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms. The pacts shown there are the Fey Pact and the Infernal Pact. I believe the Star Pact was introduced in a subsequent Dragon Magazine article, and the pact introduced in Heroes of Shadow is the Gloom Pact. The choice of pact determines the special pact weapon that the hexblade gets (a scourge for the Gloom Pact, but different weapons for the others) as well as the first level encounter power. The hexblade gets a second use of that encounter power at level 3, then a new encounter power at level 7.

 

[WalterKovacs]

So, I've not looked at any of the Essentials lines. I took a break from D&D. I see the Heroes of Shadow in a bookstore, I pick it up, and I'm... completely at a loss.

Can someone explain how the Essentials characters work? I noticed that the Warlock for instance has no Curse. No curse at all. There's no picking at wills - I'm used to that with Warlocks, but not with the other classes - the Paladin (blackguard) only had one At-will that I noticed!

Each blackguard gets 2 at-wills. One is for all blackguards, one is specific to the vice. Same deal with the warlocks (both binder and hexblade). Comparing it to the old warlock, basically there is the equivalent of the eldritch blast everyone gets, and then the "pact" specific at-will like eyebite, etc.

For the two kinds of new warlocks: The binder isn't a striker, so he doesn't have the curse to boost his damage. The hexblade gets a fixed damage boost (like the sorceror) instead.

And then the Hexblade... I didn't even get it. Ok it looks like a build for the Warlock, but what the heck is there? It seems to require you to use a scourge (and not any other kind of blade)?

The hexblade is originally from the previous Essential book Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdom. Basicaly, it's a version of the warlock tha uses their implement to "summon" a weapon based on their pact. Most are blades, but this one is a flail instead. They have weapon based at-wills and encounter powers.

Where are the encounter powers? Do you net get one at 1st, 3rd, 7th, etc?

Some classes, like the blackguard and the hexblade, get special encounter powers that they get additional uses as they level. The hexblade does get an encounter power with a level as well. However most (not all, but most) essential classes that do get encounter powers don't get to choose them. The binder and warpriest, for example, have their encounters assigned based on their choice of pact or domain. Those encounter powers are usable by older versions of the classes though. So a "normal" warlock can grab the binder's encounter powers.

What the heck is going on here.

Just like PHB3 introduced psionics and new ways of designing classes, Essentials also did that. In terms of at-will/encounter/daily/utility, the Mage is basically the same as the wizard, with a few tweaks (encounter powers are also in the spellbook, so they choose two of those as they level, and they don't "lose" spells from the spellbook, so they can always prepare the low level stuff in one of their slots" if they wanted to). On the other extreme, there are martial classes, like Slayer and Thief, that have no daily powers, one encounter powers they get multiples of, and at-will stances/movement powers that modify their basic attacks, which are pretty much their "only" attack. The idea is to make them more like older versions of D&D to some extent.

 

[Rechan]

Alright I managed to get my hands on Heroes of the Forgotten Lands and I'm still sort of scratching my head.

I'm looking at the Cavalier, for instance. All that he gets are 2 At Wills (one based on one of two builds), two Encounter powers (which are class features that are free/reaction powers), dailies, and daily utility powers.

So... Alright, I understand that Essentials characters are supposed to have less stuff "doing", more 3e-style "I use basic attack".

But how on earth are these balanced with regular stuff? I mean, I would assume that if they're doing the same At-Wills all the time (with the occasional Daily tossed in), then their At-wills are going to be rather powerful. The Cavalier of Valor's At Wills are the same as a PHB1's At Wills. But the PHB1 Paladin is stronger - he gets the same at-Wills as well as all the other stuff.

These Essentials guys look declawed, in terms of balance. They just look weak all around. Sure they're losing flexibility of Stuff to Do and Stuff to Choose From... but what are you gaining by giving that flexibility and options up? It just looks like a Regular character that chooses to just use Atwills and Dailies.

Where's the payoff (or balancing factor), mechanically?

 

[OnlineDM]

Sure they're losing flexibility of Stuff to Do and Stuff to Choose From... but what are you gaining by giving that flexibility and options up? It just looks like a Regular character that chooses to just use Atwills and Dailies.

Where's the payoff (or balancing factor), mechanically?

Simplicity is the balancing factor. Fewer choices to make = simpler characters to make. It doesn't sound like this is a selling point to you, so I would suggest you ignore these builds, as you probably won't enjoy them.

As for classes that have no daily powers, they have other features (increased accuracy and/or increased damage with basic attacks) that make their overall damage output similar to classes with dailies. They're not neutered, I promise you. But they also don't offer much flexibility, which lots of players (including you, I'd say) find boring. I recommend that players who find these builds boring not choose them.

 

[Rechan]

Simplicity is the balancing factor. Fewer choices to make = simpler characters to make. It doesn't sound like this is a selling point to you, so I would suggest you ignore these builds, as you probably won't enjoy them.

No, I understand few choices = simpler characters. Sure that's all well and good if that's what you like and that's not the issue I am now having.

What I'm trying to understand is how they are comparable based on numbers.

Let's say we have two characters who are pregens. 1 is a Cavalier, 1 is a PHB1 Paladin. Therefore, the "Simpler made" aspect doesn't matter. They both have the same amount of dailies/utilities.

Cavalier has no encounter powers.
PHB1 Does.

This means that the PB1 Paladin has more stuff he can do. The PHB1's Aws and Dailies are balanced by comparing to his dailies. Take otu the encounters and...

What is the payoff then for losing those options for the Cavalier? Shouldnt' his At-Wills or Dailies be stronger? Shouldn't the Dailies be reliable?

The Cavalier is losing power (in this case, the boost that Encounter powers grant). What is he gaining

 

[mneme]

You should pick up the Essentials player books (eg, Heroes of X) and look through them, but:

Essentials introduces a number of new concepts to 4e.

Chief among them are the ideas of variant advancement patterns and variant subclasses -- instead of having a fighter (possibly with some features you switch around at start), you've got a fighter, which could be a weaponmster (PH1 fighter; who gets to pick a specialty from GW to Arena to Battlerager) or you could be a Slayer (fighter as striker, single encounter powers that levels as you do, no dailies or at will attacks, at will stances), or you could be a knight (fighter as simple defender; single encounter powers that levels as you do, no dailies or at will attacks, at will stances).

Additionally, there's the concept of variant progressions itself. Not all classes now gain At wills, Encounters, Dailies, and Utilities at the same rate (or at all) -- though actually all classes -do- gain utilities on the same levels, with a few rare exceptions (I can think of one; the Thief [simple rogue] has their 10th level utility locked). The classes are still pretty balanced (more or less), but the simpler classes let you make fewer choices over the course of a combat, speeding up the action a bit -- and bring back the idea in earlier editions that some classes are easier to play than others, letting a player who doesn't want to make that many mechanical decisions play on easy mode with a character.

Finally, there's an overall move away from putting lots of status markers on the board, particularly targetting markers. With regular characters, you can easily have a monster get marked/focused by 4 or more characters at once, making for a bit of a tracking headache. But the Essentials warlock always gets bonus damage; the knight (fighter) and caveliier (paladin) effectively "mark" anyone their next to, and the Executioner (assassin) always does bonus damage when using assassin weapons rather than using shrouds.


So the hexblade is a different warlock subclass, with a different progression (eldritch bolt [not blast] + single weapon+implement at will chosen by pact, normal dailies, and a single scaling encounter power chosen again by pact [and weapon+implement based]). Hexblades get to manifest a special weapon in their off hand which uses their implement's stats, so functionally they can act as both melee and implement users without an extra item cost (and thus not pay double to use their weapon+implement powers). And they still have a reward mechanic, but it's not tied to cursing; instead they get it whenever they finish something. They're actually pretty similar to a normal ADEU progression; the big difference is the single scaling encounter power rather than getting a choice of encounter powers (one expects that next month they'll be able to pick a feat that will let them swap a use of the scaling encounter power for a normal warlock encounter power).

The way the scaling single encounter power thing works, btw, is that it scales up in damage automatically, and you get an extra use whenever you'd get an extra class encounter power normally. So you start with one use, and get a 2nd at 3rd level, and a third at 7th (after that, it just scales up; this does mean that at level 13, when an ADEU class would get to swap a single encounter power, the hexblade suddenly has 3 3W encounter powers, but they don't get another encounter upgrade until 23 when they scale to 4W).

 

[Kinneus]

Hey Rechan! Long time no see.

Basically, with Essentials characters, you're giving up flexibility and options in exchange for simplicity and reliability. I'm sure we've all built characters and found ourselves thinking, "Man, these level 7 Encounter powers suck! I wish I could just take my awesome level 3 Encounter again, and get two uses of it." Well, these dudes (some of them, anyway) can.

Like the "old-style" classes, there's a bit of a power curve. Some of them work, some of them don't. I've seen the Slayer in action (a Striker build for the Fighter), and I got to say, it's pretty scary. Boring, but scary, and capable of putting out consistent DPR without fiddling with a whole lot of bells and whistles.

Obviously, some people won't like the (severely) limited choices these Essentials classes offer. I'm one of those people; I'd never be caught dead playing an Essentials guy, except maybe the Mage. But I think they're a good option for new players, or those players who just want to say, "Screw these complicated builds, I just want to get in and play."

Essentials classes won't break the game or dazzle you with crazy spike damage like well-built "old-style" characters, but they allow you to have an effective character without investing RL hours searching through every possible power choice.

'Course, they still have to pick their own feats. So it ain't perfect simplicity. But it's at least simpler.

 

[mneme]

What I'm trying to understand is how they are comparable based on numbers.

Let's say we have two characters who are pregens. 1 is a Cavalier, 1 is a PHB1 Paladin. Therefore, the "Simpler made" aspect doesn't matter. They both have the same amount of dailies/utilities.

Cavalier has no encounter powers.
PHB1 Does.

That's easy. The Cavalier has the same number of encounter powers that a PH1 paladin does. It's just that all their encounter powers are Holy Smite.

The only power type that's -lacking- in any of the variant classes (rather than having fewer choices) is Thieves, Slayers, and Knights not having daily powers. And there, the mathematical tradeoff is that instead, they get to-hit and damage bonuses--basically, trading dailies for a daily buff. Obviously, this means their spike damage is lower, but they've got a lot more stamina than an ADEU character -- set the number of encounters a little past an ADEU char's sweet spot, and they'll be about on par (and you'll have an incentive for players to avoid nova-ing quite so much).