6/30/08 update: Necromancer class (work in progress)

pyrogod · 7th June 2008, 11:30 PM

As the topic, here is my homebrew Necromancer. This class is a work in progress, but I have all thirty levels complete. I'd love to see feedback on this, especially:

- General Feel,
- Any powers too strong?
- Any powers too weak?
- Any powers just look boring?

A excerpt from the beginning of the class:
"Necromancers are magic users who deal with the dead. They can summon the dead to assist them in combat and other tasks, and they are capable of powerful hexes which harm the enemy. They deal in magic that wizards and warlocks leave untouched. Some even go on to be powerful liches. One thing all necromancers have in common is that at least once in their life before they started practicing necromancy, they almost died. It could have been because of a childhood illness, an injury on the battlefield, or a miscast spell during their apprenticeship as a wizard.

Necromancers are often reviled by commoners and even other magic practioners. Some necromancers use their powers for good purposes, and help act as a bridge from life to death. Others use their powers over the dead to eliminate the harmful undead from existence. No small amount of necromancers use vile magic to harm the innocent.

You have been at death’s door, and now you have power over the very forces of life and death. When death itself holds no fear for you, what will you accomplish?

Necromancer Overview

Characteristics: Necromancers are a unique class that plays like no other. They usually have at least one minion under their control to direct on the battlefield. They also are capable of slinging powerful hexes. Necromancers have more HP and healing surges than any other caster, but they often use their own life force to power their rituals.

Religion: Necromancers usually serve the Orcus or Vecna, though many serve no god at all.

Races: Necromancy tends to be a human pursuit, because of the way they view death and the undead. However, half-elves and tieflings also take well to it when they choose."

Just to address a few design decisions and errata not in yet:

Undead Control feats
I was worried about Necromancers being too powerful with the minions, so the Necromancers need to spend one feat per minion to increase their total. Also, with the exception of Kin of Undead paragons, the minions do not get heir own special abilities, but rather need to be granted special abilities by Necromancer spells.

Healing Surges: These are very high for a few reasons:
1. Necromancers are a Leader role, and do have healing which can help the party.
2. Surges are spent on minions.
3. It forms a currency for some abilities.

Why Constitution?
Constitution is important so that Necromancers can afford to summon and lose a lot of minions, who each take a healing surge. Additionally, it offers a less than usual stat distribution for a guy in robes. The in-game justification is that hexes come from the Shadowfell and the necromancer is channeling them through his body, and thus needs to keep in extremely good condition to avoid being thoroughly ravaged by the very spells he casts. Hexed Ones haven't quite managed to avoid that fate, but at least they get something out of it.

Bookkeeping
This is partially kept low by minions literally being minions, and thus having no hit points total. I am very worried about the hex bookkeeping, and may redesign the class a bit to reflect that. At the very least I intend to come out with a helpful tracker. I also limited it to one minion type per encounter, as it both requires some tactical planning as well as avoiding any more tracking of stats as necessary.

The general playstyles of Necromancers is pretty much as follows:

Minion Masters rely on their various abilities to enhance the minions they have. Even with one minion, you will still be getting off two minion attacks per round, and minions have a toolbox of various special effects, like attacks which grant movement effects, that life steal, that cause disease, and even the tag team attack in the Kin paragon path, which I think is pretty badass in terms of flavor, if nothing else.

Hex Necros will be casting a variety of hexes which tend to do some direct damage, but also result in a huge number of conditions and other debuffs. They also can stack a large variety of hexes on a single target and then use abilities on that target to do very good damage.

Necromancers do get some controllerish / direct non-hex damage skills as well, to round them out.

Side note: I forgot the disease details. Those are coming too.

Second side note: How hexes work is that a hex is considered to be on a target while the effect is on the target. So, if I cast a hex that does ongoing damage 5 (save ends), the target has that hex until they make the save.

Please leave any comments. Also, if you want to use it in your 4e campaign, that would be more than awesome. All I ask is you tell me how it goes.

Here is the full thing as it stands:
http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcgjm4fk_0dp2nwngs'

Edit:
Minions document: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcgjm4fk_3d9vm34sq

wetzilla · 8th June 2008, 06:33 AM

This looks to be a pretty cool class, but I've got a few concerns about some of the abilities.

1. Being able to use healing surges at will to heal minions. Maybe use them like second winds and once per encounter?

2. Having an at will power that slows also seems a little over powered.

3. Brittle bones should probably only last until the end of your next turn, and then fade away.

4. This is very minor, but from the fluff it seems that Shadow Leak should also damage the minions themselves.

5. Death Jaws seems like it does way too much damage for a level 7 encounter ability. Yes it is situational, but a minion attack plus 2d8 seems very high.

6. Unstoppable minion is way overpowered. I suggest changing it to a daily power and either getting rid of the sustain or change it to sustain standard.

I stopped at level 10 since I haven't studied abilities past this level very carefully, and skipped down to the paragon paths. They seem very cool, but once again some of the abilities seem overpowered.

Kin of Undead
- Luring shadows giving your death guard another standard action again seems overpowered. Not sure how to fix it.

Life Drinker
- This just seems completely overpowered, it just gains so much life it would be very hard to kill. Being able to gain 2d8 per round in every encounter would be very hard to kill, especially at level 11. Maybe change it so you gain your con modifier hp back. And I would suggest for Hex of the Life Eater only gaining half of the damage, so 5 hp.

Hexed one
- Before starting any criticism, I have to say I love permanent hex. Allowing the DM to force you to reroll one roll per day is a very cool idea, while not really hurting you that badly. I would however, change lingering hex to once per encounter. Hex of the exiled one seems a little hig damage, but not horrible. And you don't need the miss text, just change the type of attack to reliable. That means if you miss it's not used.

The Epic Destiny looks good, in line with what is already in the PHB. The feats also seem very balanced, might want to split some into heroic, paragon, and epic level feats.

The minions are pretty good, only I didn't find an explanation of how they advance in levels. Why do they only have one hitpoint at level 1? This would seem to make healing your minions pointless, because unless they gain massive increases in HP over the levels they will pretty much always die in one hit. I also didn't see any description of the dead guard, have you just not done him yet?

About the core mechanic, I really like having to spend healing surges to create minions. With how important healing surges seem to be, it really balances out the class, making it able to deal quite a bit of damage, but at a price.

Overall it seems very good for the "alpha 0.1" version of the class, and with a few tweaks seems like it could be very balanced and would play out very well.

malcolm_n · 11th June 2008, 04:35 AM

Reading over this tonight; will give feedback on the morrow.

Lot's of work here; glad to know you put time into it.

BendBars/LiftGates · 11th June 2008, 06:32 AM

I like this. It's clear that you put a lot of time into it, and I definitely appreciate the clear formatting and professional presentation.

Here are my notes so far (more later).

Shadow Shield (level 2 utility spell) seems too much of an obvious choice. An encounter power that grants a flat bonus to AC for the rest of the encounter? There's no real encouragement to use this power tactically. You're shooting yourself in the foot if you don't launch it off as fast as possible in every encounter. I'd rather see it as a daily power that grants an AC bonus for an encounter or as an encounter ability that is maybe not so statically reliable.

Enduring hex (level 3 encounter). What does this power do? From what I read it looks like it only inflicts damage once, then is over. What is supposed to endure?

Siphon Life (level 2 utility). For a power that can only be used once per day, I would wish for this to be more beneficial. You already spent a healing surge making that minion, so to destroy it just so that you can spend another healing surge with a bonus to the healing seems not worth it. I say give the Necromancer the healing surge from the minion back as a spent surge plus bonus healing.

winterwolf · 13th June 2008, 03:33 AM

Mmm, I love this class! It looks like a lot of fun, and I hope to be able to try it out in a campaign!
Now, after saying that, I have a few things to ask about minions, though:
One, minions only ever have 1hp, so you don't have much of a reason to be able to spend a healing surge on them. Now, to change this, have you contemplated instead of using the standard rules for minions, give the necromancer a special ability that all of their undead minions (and they have a max of what, 4? excluding those mass-created by certain powers) have 5hp per necromancer level? It leads to a pinch more book keeping, but not significantly so, and the necromancer doesn't lose his entire force in one or two rounds of combat. Frankly, the person who will be running a necromancer will be the kind of person to not mind the book keeping, especially if he's tracking hexes, etc. Giving the 4 minions a standardized hit point system (2 or 3 per necromancer level seems to work out nice, easy to add up, etc. 2 if you feel that twice the necromancer's level isn't too weak, 3 if you think it is) ends in a nice, easily tracked number. For added fun, make a feat that gives the undead an extra hit point per level, maybe even allow the feat to be taken 2-3 times.
Or, you could let the necromancer's minions have 5hp per level, and the number is split evenly between his minions (at least, the minions granted by the feats, not by the mass-raised ones given by a couple of powers). With this, the necromancer might not WANT to have more than one minion out at a time, even if he has the feats for it. It becomes situational: Do you want one minion who can take a few hits, or 3-4 much less hardy minions? If you do this, raising further minions reduces the amount of hit points held by the first minion (IE, if you have 1 minion and he has 30 hit points, you pick up a second, and they both drop to 15 hit points. You pick up a 3rd, and they both drop to 10 hit points. 4th, they both drop to 7 hit points. If the minions are already damaged, you still reduce them. So, if your 30 hit point minion was at 15 hit points, and you picked up another minion, the 1st minion drops to 7 hit points while the second sits at 15. Note that this system takes a LOT more book keeping).

Second, IIRC, minions always do a flat amount of damage. I like the minions you have now, they're pretty good, but I don't think it'll change much to give them a flat damage. There are a couple of powers you have that cause your minions to do maximum damage, but maybe you could shift that to add one of your stats to damage, or perhaps just a flat bonus (+2, +4, whatever).

If you do decide to keep minions as they are, you might consider giving the necromancer one guardian-type creature that scales with level, plus the minions they have now (ala the necromancer in Diablo 2, Guild Wars, Vanguard, Everquest, etc.). Without at least 1 creation with more than 1hp, the necromancer will quickly run out of minions. Sure, he can create more, but if you have someone sitting on you, pounding you with a sword, you're going to want to deal with him, not summon another minion that he can frankly spend an action point and destroy (or just cleave, if a fighter). Yes, you have powers to slide an enemy away, etc, etc... but if after 2 rounds of combat, that's all you can do, you're not much of a necromancer. Necromancers should have at least one minion with staying power.

I know the point of using the 1hp per minion rule is to keep the characters from micromanaging... but the type of person who'd love to play a necromancer (like myself, for example) won't mind keeping track of minion hit points. If you make the health a standard value per level (like, 5 per level) it's not even that hard to do so.

Something else you might consider: Implements possibly affecting minions. Perhaps all (or one, but that makes it micromanaging again, determining which minion gets the bonus this round) gains a bonus to attack and damage equal to the implement bonus of the implement you are currently wielding (or the higher of the two, if for some reason you're running around with magic skulls in both hands).

As another note, what about adding a value to your minions' attack, damage, and defenses, perhaps equal to 1/5th of your level (so first point comes in at 5th level). This won't overpower them, and it will keep them at least somewhat able to attack without you using powers on them every round. I don't think minions should be anywhere near as powerful as pcs of their level, but I don't think they should be unable to hit or cause damage, nor do I think they should automatically go down in one hit.

Another question: What about minions equipping magic items? I'm not up on minion and magic item rules, but it would seem to me that you should have some way to keep minions from using (at the very least) any per-day magic items (or perhaps let a minion, but it uses up YOUR ability for the day).

Power-wise, I think most of these are great. If I do end up running this class, I'm going to want to create some sort of exploding corpse spells, similar to the ones in Diablo 2 (sorry if I keep bringing that game up, but this necromancer reminds me a great deal of the D2 and Guild Wars necros... and 4th edition as a whole reminds me of Guild Wars in general). The ability to create a cloud of poison or of bone shards exploding from a body just appeals to me. Maybe an effect that infuses a corpse with so much shadow energy that it radiates shadow damage as long as you concentrate? I don't know.

You have a few powers that raise an army of minions, and I love that as well, very cool. I think that those minions should stay as regular minions with 1hp, rather than expanding in hit points as your level increases, if you do end up setting up a rule about necromancer hit points per level. I also don't think those minions should benefit from any of the other minion level-based effects (such as attack and damage bonus of 1/5th your level, if you do end up using that thought), nor should they benefit from implement bonuses (again, if you pick that rule up).

As to your rules in limiting the type of minion you can control that round? On the one hand, I don't think it'd change matter for book keeping one way or the other, nor do I think having a mix of minions (2 ranged, 2 melee, for example) would really overpower the necromancer. If it is a problem with book keeping... well, honestly, the necromancer is a class that does require a pinch of book keeping, and players will understand that. This kind of custom class isn't something a player will plop down, see, and think "Oh man, I have no idea what this class is, but I'll play it!" unlike the player's handbook, where it is possible to randomly pick a class and go with it. Because it is a custom class, and will require someone to actively look for it, the person who will be playing it will be someone who WANTS to play this kind of character, not one who arbitrarily decides to do so and then gets fed up with the book keeping. And, to be honest, the book keeping isn't that bad... the wizard, with his switching out spells each day, is conceivably just as bad.

All in all, though... I'm very excited about the thought of running a necromancer like you've set up, and I know that next time I get a chance to play, I'll want to try it out. I've bookmarked this thread, because you've done a great job!

Edit: For readability, a few errors, and changed my suggestion from hitpoints per day from 5, to 2 or 3.

WarlockLord · 13th June 2008, 06:20 AM

Not to be a nitpicky jerk, but could one use a scythe as an implement as well?

Here's my necromancer. I started with low level powers, feel free to use them.

EDIT: I just finished reading this, and, wow, it looks AWESOME.

winterwolf · 13th June 2008, 08:20 AM

And, now to specifically address a few powers, throw in a few suggestions for some of my own, and maybe brainstorm a few magic items:

First off, Weaken Step, the at-will ability. Instead of slowing creatures it hits, perhaps have it just reduce their speed by 2 or 3 until the end of next turn? Slow at will seems a bit harsh.

Enduring Hex: Instead of having it just sit dormant (I suppose it only adds to the damage of other abilities that detonate hexes, or rely upon hexes to deal damage), perhaps you could do something like:

Enduring Hex Necromancer Attack 3
You case a hex that lasts for an entire battle.
Encounter * Shadow, Implement, Hex
Minor Action Ranged 10
Target: A creature
Attack: Constitution vs. Fortitude
Hit: The target takes 1d8 damage. Target takes -1 to all rolls, including saves. This effect ends after 3 saves have been successfully made against the effect.
Note: For added endurance, you could make it so that two of those saves have to occur without a failed save in between... or even all 3.

Dead Man's Cry: You might want to make it so this ability is only recharged if the opponent is standing on a new corpse when you use it. Each time, the cry comes from a different body, and it also limits the amounts of time this can be used in each encounter (unless you happen to have a LOT of dead bodies).

Unstoppable Minion: I love this ability, but you might consider making it so that, to sustain it, you have to spend either a healing surge or 10 hit points. Perhaps you could even add that you can't sustain it if you have no healing surges left (even if you intend to sustain it by taking damage, you can't if you have no surges left).

Devour Alive: Maybe have this heal as if the minion had expended a healing surge, but can't be healed by any other healing effect that round? Honestly, not much reason to change this, except that a healing surge is fairly standard.

Lifetap: I'd suggest you give the benefit only to allies within 5 or 6 squares of the undead.

Now, for a few powers that I'd like to throw in:

Punishing Hex

Corpse Explosion

Putrid Explosion

Sickening Explosion

Shadow Burst

I put in a "expend a healing surge OR take damage" option for most of the sustainable effects, just because I think that it works nicely for the necromancer's theme, and gives a bit of flexibility when low on healing surges. I don't know if the damage is too low, too high, or what... I haven't played it out yet. It might also be useful to change the sustainability option to something like "expend a healing surge or take 10 damage. If you are out of healing surges, you cannot sustain this effect, even if you are willing to take the damage." so that the necro can't just burn through healing surges, and still expect to keep powering his spells.

I'd also make it so that you can only use a body once, for any effect. You can't make it the target of a corpse explosion spell and then animate it, for example, nor could you use it to recharge your Dead Man's Cry, for example. However, since the resurrect ritual does not specify what condition the corpse is in (as far as I recall), you can still use that and speak with dead.

Also, I love the idea of that scythe! Perhaps give the Scythe the same benefits as a warlock's dagger (whatever it's called).

Also, for the skull implement... instead of having just a skull, maybe allow for a skull on a rod of some sort (perhaps even a femur), or maybe a shrunken head... it would depend upon the magic item, I assume, some would be just an unadorned skull, some might be a skull with arcane etchings, some might be a skull with gems in the eyesockets, and all the teeth replaced by precious stones... etc.

Speaking of femurs, perhaps you could use something like that as an implement? Give the necromancer the ability to use a staff made of the vertebrae of some humanoid (or the legbone of some giant), or a wand made of a titan's finger (or humanoid's leg).

A couple of magic skulls:
A few orbs could be easily modified into one, like the Orb of Sanguinary Repercussion, just have it be a skull and deal necrotic damage.
Most of the other orbs don't even require that much modification.

A lot of the Rod powers work well for the necromancer concept, as well, especially if you change them into a fetish of some sort (like a ritually decorated thighbone).
For example, change the rod of dark reward into something that gives you +1 bonus to armor whenever you raise a minion, or a minion of yours dies. Both bonuses stack, but won't stack with other bonuses of the same (Eg, you raise 3 minions, you only gain the +1... 4 minions die, you only gain +1).
The Rod of Death's Grasp works well, you could change it to take effect when you hex a foe, maybe reduce the ongoing damage to 5 (because hexing a foe has a much better combat effect than a warlock's curse) and temp hitpoints gained to the same.

Using skeleton-based staves (staves made of bone, or perhaps capped by a skull) would be similar, and many of the ones in the PHB can be easily converted. The Staff of Fiery Might, for example, could just as easily be shifted to Necrotic Might.
For the scythe-style necromancy image, instead of having a skeleton-based stave, have it be a skeleton-based staff. Instead of quarterstaff damage, it deals scythe damage!

jorgeo · 17th June 2008, 10:45 PM

Have any of the above recommendations been included in the current necromancer document? A player of mine is interested is playing this necromancer class (and I'd like him to, too), but I'd be more comfortable if any trial-and-error fixes were included into a beta document.

Thanks for your hard work!

pyrogod · 30th June 2008, 08:00 AM

Did a fairly large update to the class that you can find at the same link (which is: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcgjm4fk_0dp2nwngs). I did balance updates and general fixes to a few powers, added a new paragon path, added about a dozen magical items, as well as a heroic Necromancer artifact, added more minion stats (minions get better every odd level), and added a section with some combat and character tips.

Split off the minions unto a new document.
http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcgjm4fk_3d9vm34sq

Also, to add a few things:
- Thanks for everyone who contributed advice.
- I intend to add a couple more corpse related abilities to the class.
- I may or may not add non-Dark Reaper related scythe abilities. Not sure. If you have an opinion, feel free to share.
- Dark Reaper abilities are intended to be very good, because the cloth wearing caster would otherwise not be able to do much. Please do sanity check the class, however, as it is a first effort.
- I still need to do paragon and epic tier minions and Dead Guards. To anyone playing the class, Dead Guards will be awesome, so if you feel attracted to that side of things, I think you will be pleased.

King-Panda · 30th June 2008, 01:18 PM

This could already be possible from the weblink you gave, but I can't get these two documents (Necromancer and Nec. Minions) to save in OpenOffice without some wonky formatting. Could you possibly put up a link for these as .odt files? Even .Doc will work, as OO can open those too.

winterwolf · 1st July 2008, 10:20 PM

So, I've played this class a bit now, in our 4E campaign (KofSF) and so far, it's a lot of fun.
Few power balance suggestions: I think that the encounter ability: Enrage Minion should be a daily effect, since it lasts for the entire encounter. If you want it to remain an encounter effect, make it until the end of your next turn or something. Bad Luck should probably be Int v. Will, and grant -2 to all enemy attacks on a hit, with -1 on a miss, or give it +1 on a hit with a +1 effect (if you hit, you get +2, if not, the effect takes place whether or not you hit).
The daily ability Leap Attack would honestly make a much nicer encounter ability, I think... you give up your standard action to grant a move and an attack from a minion, and then it can take its normal move and attack.
The daily ability Instant Minion would make a very nice Encounter Utility effect, since it's not really an attack, and it's not overpowered per encounter, I think.
I've only hit level 2 so far, but a few of the utilities there could be changed a bit. You might consider making Siphon Life a minor or move action instead of a standard action. You might also consider making Shadow Shield a +2 to all defenses, and then making it daily as well. Right now, +2 to AC for the entire encounter is better than the mage's +4 to all defenses for the next round, since encounters last for quite some time from what I've seen. If it were daily as is, though, it wouldn't be as good as the mage one. +2 to all defenses once per day for an encounter works well.
As a note, we ended up making a couple of other changes: first off, took the necromancer's ability to heal an undead minion and instead gave it:
"Death to Life", an encounter ability similar to the cleric's Healing Word. What it does is, twice per encounter (with more times per encounter at the same level a cleric gains more uses) the necromancer can spend a healing surge and heal a dying companion for that companion's healing surge value. It's a mix of cleric (range, uses per encounter, action type) and paladin (uses necro's healing surge, no healing bonus) healing features, with the limitation that it only affects dying comrades. Thematically, it shows that a necromancer doesn't just focus on death, he focuses on preserving life energy. It also gives him a bit of a leader role for the living, as well.
Next, we used the decrepit undead from the monster manual as the base minion. With the Magus research feat, we gave it a ranged attack (same as the magus) with standard damage (I think 4, but can't remember). Also, we removed Undead Control 1, and said that all necromancers can animate at least 1 undead minion as a class feature, with more minions to follow as they level (using the standard feats). We also decided to use three hp per level for necromancer minions, plus an increase to attack and damage every 5 levels.
We are looking at throwing in some new feats: maybe an 11th level research feat to grant an additional HP per level per minion to the minions, as well as feats to allow the master to create higher level minion undead.
Instead of the Kin of Undead deathguard, we're thinking of giving the kin a daily ability to "Animate a creature you just killed. For the rest of the encounter, you have it as an undead guardian. It comes back to life at its bloodied value, has no new bloodied value, never counts as bloodied, and cannot be healed above what it starts at. It gains immunity to disease and poison, and is considered to be Dominated by you. There is no chance you may lose control of it, and if you die, it dies."
ALl in all, this class is a LOT of fun to run, and to tinker with. My group is rather fond of it. Thanks for the work!

Cringer_luvr · 2nd July 2008, 12:01 AM

AWESOME stuff...cant wait to see more!!

Szatany · 2nd July 2008, 02:03 PM

Would you consider an idea of changing shadow powers from spells to shrouds?

Siberys · 2nd July 2008, 04:05 PM

Or Mysteries! I always thought that would be a great name for Shadow powers.

Szatany · 2nd July 2008, 07:31 PM

I think shroud is a good one because it references both death/grave aspects of the shadow power source (necromancy) and illusion one. I'm already using it with my shadow class, the Scourge http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcx3dp8f_089jqfgt

pyrogod · 3rd July 2008, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King-Panda

This could already be possible from the weblink you gave, but I can't get these two documents (Necromancer and Nec. Minions) to save in OpenOffice without some wonky formatting. Could you possibly put up a link for these as .odt files? Even .Doc will work, as OO can open those too.

http://www.filefactory.com/file/1330...cer_DND_4e_doc

http://www.filefactory.com/file/d0c8...Minions_4e_doc

Quote:

Originally Posted by winterwolf

So, I've played this class a bit now, in our 4E campaign (KofSF) and so far, it's a lot of fun.
Few power balance suggestions: I think that the encounter ability: Enrage Minion should be a daily effect, since it lasts for the entire encounter. If you want it to remain an encounter effect, make it until the end of your next turn or something. Bad Luck should probably be Int v. Will, and grant -2 to all enemy attacks on a hit, with -1 on a miss, or give it +1 on a hit with a +1 effect (if you hit, you get +2, if not, the effect takes place whether or not you hit).
The daily ability Leap Attack would honestly make a much nicer encounter ability, I think... you give up your standard action to grant a move and an attack from a minion, and then it can take its normal move and attack.
The daily ability Instant Minion would make a very nice Encounter Utility effect, since it's not really an attack, and it's not overpowered per encounter, I think.
I've only hit level 2 so far, but a few of the utilities there could be changed a bit. You might consider making Siphon Life a minor or move action instead of a standard action. You might also consider making Shadow Shield a +2 to all defenses, and then making it daily as well. Right now, +2 to AC for the entire encounter is better than the mage's +4 to all defenses for the next round, since encounters last for quite some time from what I've seen. If it were daily as is, though, it wouldn't be as good as the mage one. +2 to all defenses once per day for an encounter works well.
As a note, we ended up making a couple of other changes: first off, took the necromancer's ability to heal an undead minion and instead gave it:
"Death to Life", an encounter ability similar to the cleric's Healing Word. What it does is, twice per encounter (with more times per encounter at the same level a cleric gains more uses) the necromancer can spend a healing surge and heal a dying companion for that companion's healing surge value. It's a mix of cleric (range, uses per encounter, action type) and paladin (uses necro's healing surge, no healing bonus) healing features, with the limitation that it only affects dying comrades. Thematically, it shows that a necromancer doesn't just focus on death, he focuses on preserving life energy. It also gives him a bit of a leader role for the living, as well.
Next, we used the decrepit undead from the monster manual as the base minion. With the Magus research feat, we gave it a ranged attack (same as the magus) with standard damage (I think 4, but can't remember). Also, we removed Undead Control 1, and said that all necromancers can animate at least 1 undead minion as a class feature, with more minions to follow as they level (using the standard feats). We also decided to use three hp per level for necromancer minions, plus an increase to attack and damage every 5 levels.
We are looking at throwing in some new feats: maybe an 11th level research feat to grant an additional HP per level per minion to the minions, as well as feats to allow the master to create higher level minion undead.
Instead of the Kin of Undead deathguard, we're thinking of giving the kin a daily ability to "Animate a creature you just killed. For the rest of the encounter, you have it as an undead guardian. It comes back to life at its bloodied value, has no new bloodied value, never counts as bloodied, and cannot be healed above what it starts at. It gains immunity to disease and poison, and is considered to be Dominated by you. There is no chance you may lose control of it, and if you die, it dies."
ALl in all, this class is a LOT of fun to run, and to tinker with. My group is rather fond of it. Thanks for the work!

Thanks hugely for the feedback. I've incorporated some of your suggestions into the class so far, if you do not mind. I think Death to Life is actually a darn good idea.

I did reduce the range on Bad Luck, but I'm quite reluctant on adding an attack roll, both to speed use, and because it is half as powerful as it would be if I wrote it as Con vs. Will, 1d6 damage and -1 to rolls, as it cannot kill minions. I think at this point it compares reasonably to Divine Glow and Burning Hands, both of which can be situationally better.

I do have minion progression in terms of attacks / damage / defense in the new minion sheet, though they still act like minions mechanically in my version. It goes up to level 9 at this point (just from being not done, that isn't a cap), with a new version every odd level.

Your idea for the alternate Kin could also be cool, but I do think once fully fleshed out, the Dead Guard idea has promise.

Cringer_luvr · 3rd July 2008, 10:08 PM

this class is awesome!!! I love it all....hope you continue to do more stuff for it!

Asmor · 4th July 2008, 01:15 PM

Very groovy, keep up the good work! I especially like the idea of making minions requiring a healing surge. Very elegant solution to nip some potentially nasty problems in the bud!

generalhenry · 4th July 2008, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Leader / Controller.

take a look at the Artificer class. It's a leader/controller class. Never the less it's not called by it's hybrid role, it's called by it's main role. I'd change it to Controller. In no way could your class replace a cleric.

Quote:

Implements: Skulls

I too would like to see more. Pact blades, rods, Books, Scythes etc...

Quote:

Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution score

I'd reduce them down to wizard HP (though I'd leave a large number of surges 9 + con imo)

Quote:

You must have the Undead Control I feat

You shouldn't need a feat to unlock a class feature

Quote:

Necromancer Special 1

BAH! no breaking the system. Attacks should all be attacks (there should be an attack role involved)

Command Minion: Attack is fine, but Enrage Minions and Instant Minion are utility powers.

to fix enrage minions make an aoe that harms enemies and enrages your minions.

to fix instant minion make it an attack that creates a minion if you kill the target.

Cringer_luvr · 5th July 2008, 04:11 AM

yea I agree, should not need a feat to unlock a class feature, though I love the rest