Class New Class: The Lancer

[ff6shadow]

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[ff6shadow]

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[ff6shadow]

Edited several of the paragon powers and one of the at-wills.

[Dreary_Angel]

It seems an intriguing class... iwould call it a striker, even if it has (for the little i saw, i haven't read everything) some leader-like things...
will it be possible to have it on a downloadable PDF file or similar?
Thank You ^^

[Greja]

I like the class, very Final Fantasy. In previous editions these kinds of melee oriented feats would be too over the top, but now it fits right in with the level of amazing things other martial characters can do. It is a hybrid class for sure, with a few defender traits (Roundabout Capability) and a striker/controller feel as well. Combined with some of the polearm abilities I would say this is a character welcome in any party.

Nice work!

As an aside, would this class be representable by its own paragon based off of a fighter?

[ff6shadow]

Sorry, I can't make the pdf. So now people have called it leaderish, controllerish, strikerish, and defenderish. Makes me wonder what it really is.

I'm honestly not ure if it could be represented by a fighter paragon path. I haven't really tried creating a paragon path. I might look into after this is finished.

[ziegander]

All you really need to do is decide whether you want this to be a striker or defender. I would lean more toward striker simply because of the lackluster armor and hitpoints, but you could push it back toward defender by tweaking those.

If you want it to be a striker give it a "Sneak Attack" analog and you're golden (Jump anyone?).

If you want it to be a defender raise the armor profs, raise the hps, lose acrobatics from the skills and give it a marking ability and you're golden.


The class has some control-y aspects, but that's okay, the Rogue and the Fighter both have some secondary control function, so it's no big deal.

[knightofround]

As a big fan of the FF Lancer, I appreciate this =) However, I would go the opposite route of ziegander...I would prefer to make this more of a defender class. The main reason being that I typically think of a Lancer wearing plate armor, and they have always seemed to me to be more of a tank than a squishy striker. I like the inclusion of Acrobatics/Jump, but you might want to include an ability to reduce armor check penalties.

To compensate, I might suggest going down to 2 skills instead of 4, and eliminating the Lancer tactics. And in return bumping up the Lancer hit points to match a Fighter's, and add some sort of ability that reduces armor check penalties on Acrobatics/Jump.

I think this class is sufficiently distinctive from Fighter/Paladin due to the lack of a "challenge" type ability; instead it gets increased combat versatility. Something to think about would be giving the class threatening reach as a permanent class feature, if the absence of a challenge becomes too big of a downfall. For example, you could eliminate Roundabout capacity and have the Lancer sustain their threatening reach as a minor or move action. I think you did an awesome job making the class feel different but at the same time not make it overpowered.

You might want to go through the abilities and keyword some of them polearm-only. There's a lot of abilities that wouldn't make sense if the lancer is using a sword or a hammer or something.

[ff6shadow]

Epic powers are up. along with a few edits and a new paragon power.

[Olfactatron]

Some hopefully constructive crit:
Blinding Strike is way, way too strong. A burst blind effect versus a non-AC defense is would challenge some of the best 1st and 5th level daily powers. As an encounter power it's far too good. Even if it uses a secondary ability to attack.

Rapid strike doesn't need an attack penalty.

I don't see a need for defensive spin to do only Str damage. If you feel it's too powerful, drop the bonus to AC and Ref to +1.

As a whole I think you should move this class in one direction or the other, as it is it's not enough of a defender or a striker to fulfill either roll effectively. Making it a good 5th man, but incapable of effectively being the prime defender or striker.

Giving it threatening reach as a minor action would probably be enough to make it one hell of a defender with no other changes necessary.

To make it a good striker, you would have to include some way to increase it's damage per round to a single target (I like some variation of the leaping dragoon ability for this) Also, since the Lancer is pretty much restricted to using +2 prof weapons, his attack bonus is a little low compared to other strikers who get prime shot or an extra prof bonus in the rogue's case.

It's a great idea, it only needs a little tweaking to get it to be a great execution as well. Good work.

[ff6shadow]

I placed Rapid Strike at a penalty to keep off of the rangers toes, since he has the only multi-target at-will that isn't arcane.

I considered increasing Defensive Spin to 1[W], but was worried it might make it too good.

I'm honstely not sure what it is yet. I've had it called Striker twice, Defender three times, Striker/Controller, Defender/Striker, and Defender/Controller. So it's really up in the air across the board.

[erik_the_guy]

It's a controller, you target a large number of enemies and try to take control of the battlefield. At every level you have a move available that lets you hit all adjacent enemies, and sometimes all enemies within 10/15 feet. It's pretty similar to the wizard, except melee oriented. Although you tilt a bit more towards the defender class than a wizard does, you are still a controller.

Nice set of powers. I compared most of the first level ones to similar classes in the PHB and found them to be about the same.

The reason I say controller is that if your party had three characters other than the lancer I would want a striker (since the lancer is good, but not great at dealing high damage to single targets) a defender (since the lancer is good but not great at soaking huge numbers of attacks) and a leader (since the lancer doesn't do much healing or support of allies). I wouldn't need a wizard since you can already deal with large groups.

Edit: not a striker because it doesn't deal enough damage. Most strikers can do about 15 damage on a decent turn without even using encounters or dailies. My level 2 rogue does about 16-18 a turn with at-wills.

The wizard and lancer differ slightly in that the lancer gets more damage but fewer targets. The wizard is great for killing 15 minions, and the lancer can take down 5 or 6 guys with 10HP each.

[ff6shadow]

That is an interesting way of looking at it but . . . a Martial Controller? Many people seem to think that's some kind of oxymoron. Of course, I do like the sound of it.

[Olfactatron]

Originally Posted by ff6shadow

I placed Rapid Strike at a penalty to keep off of the rangers toes, since he has the only multi-target at-will that isn't arcane.

Ok. But that just makes the power basically ignorable, because I could either take 2 attacks at -1 or up to 8 attacks if I were mobbed at no penalty. I realize the rapid strike power can be used to attack with reach, but honestly the situations in which that means I have to only attack one opponent are probably going to be rare. The penalty means that even if I have the power I'm going to do my damnedest to avoid using it.

Originally Posted by ff6shadow

I considered increasing Defensive Spin to 1[W], but was worried it might make it too good.

Not really, the paladin and cleric have similar abilties. The power bonus to AC makes up for the lack of a shield, and it doesn't stack with other power bonuses. Just make the power require staff, spear or polearm. In fact most if not all of their powers should require staff, spear or polearm.

[Olfactatron]

Originally Posted by erik_the_guy

It's a controller, you target a large number of enemies and try to take control of the battlefield. At every level you have a move available that lets you hit all adjacent enemies, and sometimes all enemies within 10/15 feet. It's pretty similar to the wizard, except melee oriented. Although you tilt a bit more towards the defender class than a wizard does, you are still a controller.

Originally Posted by erik_the_guy

The wizard and lancer differ slightly in that the lancer gets more damage but fewer targets. The wizard is great for killing 15 minions, and the lancer can take down 5 or 6 guys with 10HP each.

Except nothing in the game that isn't a minion has fewer than 20 hp.


Other things:
I have no clue what this means in the level 3 flurry of blows power: "Close Blast Melee Weapon + 1"
Do you mean blast 2? or potentially blast 3?
Also, not a good idea to have a power with the same name as a class feature. It's confusing.

The forceful blow power doesn't need a secondary attack. Weakend is a low teir status effect. You could just add it to the damage with no problem.

The coiled viper lvl5 daily and blurred spin lvl10 utility power shouldn't say "until the end of the encounter..." that's already implied by the stance keyword. As written, you could drop out of the stance at any time and still have the ability.

The 9th level power heavy blow is way underpowered. A daily that does 1[w] to one enemy is garbage unless it's status effect is way buff, and ongoing 5 and weakend doesn't cut it. Every other power at that level is far better, consider upgrading it to 3[w].

[ff6shadow]

Yeah, Close Blast Melee Weapon +1 will be either a Blast 2 with, for example a longsword, or Blast 3 with a reach weapon..

Got it. Forceful blow won't require a secondary attack,

I'll edit Coiled Viper and Blurred Spin.

I'll edit Heavy Blow to 2[W].

Additionally, Defensive Spin will go to 1[W] and Rapid Strike will go to no penalty. You convinced me.