D&D 4E 4E with no 1/2 levels bonuses

Starfox

Hero
This is an idea for a campaign-specific rules option. I'm not proposing a general rule change, merely the effects of this alternate rule on a campaign.

I guess most of us have played computer games where you fight a level 1 bandit at level 1, then mysteriously find only level 10 bandits when you are level 10. I have players allergic to this, so I wanted to air an idea to make level differences less dramatic. In other words, a system that lets you fight level 1 bandits even at level 10.

My idea is very simple. Simply remove the +1/2 levels factor from all cases where it applies. AC, Defenses, Attack Rolls, Skills. The one exception would be Initiative, where I feel it should still apply.

What troubles should I expect? These are some things I've tough about
  • Xp discrepancies. The change in XP over levels assumes the 1/2 levels factor is there. Higher level monsters will give to much xp, lower level monsters too little. Doesn't particularly bother me actually, as I think the rate of xp increase over levels is a bit low now, and I'm strongly considering not using xp for this game anyway. It will make encounter design a bit tricky, tough.
  • Magic item economy. Same argument as above.
  • Skill challenges. The DCs of skill challenges now increase slightly more than +1/2 levels. My solution is to simply reduce the DCs by 1/2 levels.
  • Hit points will still escalate, and in fact will be one of the major deciding factors with level. But 1-st level hit points are pretty high these days, so the proportional hit point change over levels is not ridiculous.
 

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I think this could work really well, and had a similar thought just the other day.

My main concern is that I personally would not want to make the mathematical adjustments to all those monsters (subtracting 1/2 the monster's level from all of its attacks and defenses and skills), just because I am lazy and hate basic arithmetic. ;}

Doing this still produces monsters that scale by level because a monster's attack and defenses are based on its level NOT half its level! Why the discrepancy between monsters and PCs? To account for magic items, ability score increases, feat bonuses, paragon path features, and higher-level powers (better buffs and debuffs). If players still get those things, they will still be stronger at higher levels and monsters need to be tougher to compensate.

As for your issues:

XP: Higher level monsters are still tougher due to the monster-PC discrepancy (above) and due to having weird abilities (and the expectation that the players have the capacity to prevent those abilities). So there should still be some discrepancy in XP due to level, but maybe less than there is now. As a consistent rule of thumb for building encounters, I would count each monster as 1/2 its level for XP purposes (a level 9 monster would count as a level 4 and only be worth 175 XP) since that is what you have done, effectively, to their attacks and defenses. I'd also treat the PCs as half their level when determining encounter XP budgets. Then I'd just cut all the numbers on the XP-needed-to-level chart in half. This will produce a MUCH faster advancement at low levels (practically double-speed) but it will slow more at higher levels.

Magic Items: If you still have them in the game, then yes, they will increase the character's attacks/defenses gradually over their careers. They will also be WAY more valuable because there are a lot fewer ways to naturally increase attacks and defenses. But I think the system still "works" and players like getting magic items. I wouldn't adjust anything unless it became a problem.

Skill Challenges: I think you have the right of it. The DCs don't scale linearly in order to account for magic items, feat and power bonuses, etc. But if you just subtract 1/2 level from each DC you can cancel that factor while leaving the others alone.

Hit Points: This is where the system gets interesting and where I think it really works. This house rule makes it easier to take a higher-level monster and use it, unchanged, as an elite or solo in a lower-level encounter. You can also make things into minions just by zapping their HP (in the normal rules, minion defenses are also a big issue). The exact same werewolf may be a level 3 solo, a level 5 elite, a level 8 brute, or a level 12 minion (just drop his HP to 1). It sounds like this would be really fun for your players -- it allows them to encounter "level 10 bandits" throughout their careers while seeing said bandit go from a serious threat to a laughable one, giving a real sense of accomplishment.

Note that higher-level powers do more damage to compensate for increased monster hit points. I would not change this one bit. HP and damage would then become the primary reason why higher-level PCs and monsters are, uh, higher level. This is how many action-adventure-rpg video games do it (because in those games the attacks and defenses are based on twitch and player skill rather than stats) and I think it works well because you get much more monster re-use. There are many video games where the level 2 mini-boss later shows up as the level-8 cannon fodder, and it's pretty cool.

(Saving throws get wonky in this situation. You want the "level 3 solo werewolf" to still get the +5 bonus on saving throws. And when the party is level 15, that werewolf should probably be taking a penalty, to make him easier to push off cliffs and so forth. My instinct is that you can probably assign this on-the-fly somewhat. Or you could have a standard system where creatures get a bonus on saves vs. lower-level effects, and a penalty vs. higher-level effects, equal to the difference in level. I tend to think of saving throw modifiers as the HP/damage of non-damaging effects, and against foes of roughly even levels, the whole "1d20 vs. DC 10" thing works well. But if you are routinely up against foes of very different levels, you may wish to introduce that scaling.)


I think you should try this system and let us know how it works!

-- 77IM
 

I prefer to just let my players scale, and yes the world does scale with them. But really, my players don't fight bandits once they've got enough levels under their belts. It's the reason that kobolds only go to level 5 or so. Sure, you could make epic-tier kobolds, but it would frustrate people. So the players take pride in the fact that they're now badass enough to fight wyvern riders. Part of D&D is, in a weird sort of way, earning the right to fight badder enemies. It's not that the kobolds aren't around anymore, it's just that you're now so powerful that you are needed to take on more important threats to the kingdom than you used to.

I think you should just remember that higher-level characters take on more challenging threats and simply don't have to deal with forest brigands anymore. To drive this point home, sometimes it's fun to have the players face a low-level threat and wipe the floor with them. Let them pound their way through the city militia, or some foolish thieves. It reminds them that they're still pretty cool, at least until you beat them down with the wyvern riders.
 

The campaign I'm thinking of using this with would be a ghost hunter campaign in Shogunate Japan. Monster progression would be quite unlike that of normal DnD.
 

What about skills? They only improve through the 1/2 level. The only way they improve without that is through stat increases and feats.

Honestly I am not sure this will have the huge benefit you think it will, at 10th level they have 6 feats, and 3 encounter, utility, and daily powers. a 1st level bandit will be massacred even without that +5 to hit and defense.

A better method to keep level 1 bandits dangerous is to not give out XP and keep everyone level 1 forever.

Jay
 

What about skills? They only improve through the 1/2 level. The only way they improve without that is through stat increases and feats.

Well, since target numbers also increase at the same pace (or even faster) than the skills, the only way you can increase your probability of success is through stats and feats anyway, so that does not matter much.

Skill 18 vs a target number of 28 has just the same chance of success as skill 3 vs a target number of 13... it does not matter that you have added 15 to both skill and target number. An extra 15 (or an extra three million) on both sides is just noise, not signal. It can just as well be filtered out.
 
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Honestly I am not sure this will have the huge benefit you think it will, at 10th level they have 6 feats, and 3 encounter, utility, and daily powers. a 1st level bandit will be massacred even without that +5 to hit and defense.

I think that's the idea, though. At 1st level, an encounter with 6 1st-level bandits is a tough encounter. At 10th level, it's more like 20 1st-level bandits.

The bandits are still a credible threat in numbers. In the normal system, they're not. That's why we end up with weird artifacts like the highest-level orc in the MM being a minion. Under this system you get more "monster reuse" across levels without artificial monster inflation.

-- 77IM
 

It sounds credible to me for what you're wanting to do. Personally I don't really do 'epic' levels by mutual agreement in our group so flattening the curve could certainly open some scope. I've also got (and had) issues with the existing skill system and DC's where it is just signal to noise ratio.

I'd be very intersted to hear the results of any testing of this.
 

Not had a chance to test this yet - I doubt I'll play 4E before the PH2 is out.

Further thinking on skills: with this potion, you don't get the epic tasks normally done by high-level characters. A city wall is basically just as hard to climb at 20th level as at 2nd level. This is both good and bad. The "sense of Wonder" is lessened when you don't scale Mount Celestia and the city walls of Dis at level 20, but verisimilitude and continuity is enhanced.
 

Yeah I think this is very doable within the framework of 4E. But the major downside is that it would be incredibly annoying to nerf down all the stats of monsters in the MM to compensate for the loss. However, if you make your own monsters anyway though thats not too much of a problem. Another problem would be it screws up XP budgets...but again, if you don't use that anyway, its no big loss.

However, I would suggest keeping the 1/2 level bonus on skills. A level 1 noobling wizard shouldn't be able to power epic-level rituals and know the most innerworkings of the abyss. And a level 10 adventurer with horrors and experiences under his belt should be as perceptive as a level 1 adventurer who happens to be very acute (trained in skill: perception) IMHO.
 

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