A couple ideas on how to bring back Save or Die spells

[Falling Icicle]

Here's my conversions of three classic save or die spells from past editions. Now, I completely understand why these spells weren't included in 4th edition, but I think these versions resolve any concerns. As I understand it, the two main problems with these spells in previous editions were that they put too much weight on a single die roll and that they could eliminate the big bad guy too easily, robbing the boss fight of drama and meaningful challenge. IMO, these versions resolve both issues. First, they require 3 failed saves to actually kill (or petrify) their target. Second, solo monsters can't be instant killed by them, so you avoid any "wizard with orb mastery and 26 wisdom killing Orcus in 3 rounds no matter what" cheese. Tell me what you think.

Phantasmal Killer – Wizard Attack 9
You horrify your foe with an illusory manifestation of his greatest fears, possibly scaring him to death.
Daily * Arcane, Fear, Illusion, Implement, Psychic
Standard Action – Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude and Will
Hit: The target takes 2d6 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage and ongoing 5 psychic damage (save ends). If the target is not a solo creature and it fails its saving throw on three consecutive turns against this power (additonal saves granted from powers, heal checks, etc. don't count), it dies from fright.
Miss: Half damage and the target takes ongoing 5 psychic damage (save ends).
Special: You make only one attack roll, but compare that attack result against both defenses. If you don't hit both defenses the result is a miss.

Petrify – Wizard Attack 15
You transform your foe’s flesh to stone, turning him into a harmless statue.
Daily * Arcane, Implement, Polymorph
Standard Action – Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
Hit: 3d6 + Intelligence modifier damage and the target is slowed (save ends). If the target is not a solo creature and it fails its saving throw on three consecutive turns against this power (additonal saves granted from powers, heal checks, etc. don't count), it becomes permanently petrified.
Miss: Half damage and the target is slowed (save ends).

Finger of Death – Wizard Attack 19
As you point your finger at your foe in a hateful gesture, he feels his life force being snuffed out.
Daily * Arcane, Implement, Necrotic
Standard Action – Ranged 10
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
Hit: 3d6 + Intelligence modifier necrotic damage and the target is weakened (save ends). If the target is not a solo creature and it fails its saving throw on three consecutive turns against this power (additonal saves granted from powers, heal checks, etc. don't count), it dies instantly.
Miss: Half damage and the target is weakened (save ends).

[Edit] Changed "If the target is not a solo creature and it fails three saving throws against this power" to "If the target fails its saving throw on three consecutive turns against this power (additonal saves granted from powers, heal checks, etc. don't count)." It was never my intent that targets desperately trying to save themselves would actually turn to stone or die even quicker.

 

[Verision]

Save or Save or Save or Die

My only problem with giving the wizard "save or save or save or die" powers is that, for balance's sake, you are going to have to give similar powers to the other classes. If not, then you are once again saying "The Wizard is special because he gets magic" (which was basically what they were saying in older editions). This goes against the idea of 4e.

If you made similar powers, at similar levels, for the other classes then I see no reason why this wouldn't work.

Then agan, to make it completely fair, I would have to include "save or save or save or die" powers for some solo and elite mosters of higher levels; if the PCs can kill monsters with one power than monsters should be able to kill PCs with one power.

 

[Szatany]

I like the idea of SoD spells being somehow incorporated into 4e, but I don't like your implementation of it. Imagine a monster with 3 SoDs on it, you have to keep track of every each one and remember which round is it. I would lean toward another possibility for sods:

Phantasmal Killer – Wizard Attack 9
You horrify your foe with an illusory manifestation of his greatest fears, possibly scaring him to death.
Daily * Arcane, Fear, Illusion, Implement, Psychic
Standard Action – Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. Will
Hit: The target takes 3d6 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage and make a secondary attack.
Secondary Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
Secondary Hit: The target takes 1d6 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage. Then if target's current hit points are 15 or less, it dies.
Miss: Half damage and no secondary attack.

That way you still can kill with a single spell, but it makes sure creatures with a lot of fight in them (lots of HP) are not affected by the most powerful part of the spell.

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

Honestly? I would have "save or die" powers do healing surge damage (lose X amount of healing surges). This gives the player the opportunity to still fight, but forces them to be extra cautious.

 

[chronoplasm]

If you made similar powers, at similar levels, for the other classes then I see no reason why this wouldn't work.

I think this is doable.

Smother
Standard Action
Daily. Grappling
Target: One grabbed creature.
Attack: Strength vs. Fortitude
Hit: If the creature has been grabbed since the end of your last turn, it cannot breath.

It has three saves:
1) Save to avoid being grappled.
2) Save to escape grab.
3) Save to avoid smother.

 

[Szatany]

Honestly? I would have "save or die" powers do healing surge damage (lose X amount of healing surges). This gives the player the opportunity to still fight, but forces them to be extra cautious.

That would mean SoD are only meant to be used by monsters? Because they would be useless for players (as monsters don't have/use surges).

 

[Falling Icicle]

My only problem with giving the wizard "save or save or save or die" powers is that, for balance's sake, you are going to have to give similar powers to the other classes. If not, then you are once again saying "The Wizard is special because he gets magic" (which was basically what they were saying in older editions). This goes against the idea of 4e.

If you made similar powers, at similar levels, for the other classes then I see no reason why this wouldn't work.

Sure, there's no reason other classes couldn't have these types of powers. Clerics could have Slay Living and heck, Phantasmal Killer could just as easily be a Warlock spell. Even fighters could use this mechanic. I just used the wizard for my example because those spells were all wizard spells in past editions.

Then agan, to make it completely fair, I would have to include "save or save or save or die" powers for some solo and elite mosters of higher levels; if the PCs can kill monsters with one power than monsters should be able to kill PCs with one power.

Those powers already exist. Beholders can petrify you in 3 turns, for example. I figured that if the monsters can have them, then fair is fair.

Honestly? I would have "save or die" powers do healing surge damage (lose X amount of healing surges). This gives the player the opportunity to still fight, but forces them to be extra cautious.

These spells are player spells. Monster spells work differently. It's a hard thing to get used to. In past editions the spells were written with both players and monsters in mind. Now, they're written only for the players and monsters have their own rules. Since most monsters don't have healing surges, I'm afraid that idea wouldn't work.

I like the idea of SoD spells being somehow incorporated into 4e, but I don't like your implementation of it. Imagine a monster with 3 SoDs on it, you have to keep track of every each one and remember which round is it.

How is this different from ongoing damage and other (save ends) effects? You have to keep track of all them anyway. The only difference here is something special happens if a certain number of saves are failed, and that mechanic is already used in spells such as Sleep.

I would lean toward another possibility for sods:

Phantasmal Killer – Wizard Attack 9
You horrify your foe with an illusory manifestation of his greatest fears, possibly scaring him to death.
Daily * Arcane, Fear, Illusion, Implement, Psychic
Standard Action – Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. Will
Hit: The target takes 3d6 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage and make a secondary attack.
Secondary Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
Secondary Hit: The target takes 1d6 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage. Then if target's current hit points are 15 or less, it dies.
Miss: Half damage and no secondary attack.

That way you still can kill with a single spell, but it makes sure creatures with a lot of fight in them (lots of HP) are not affected by the most powerful part of the spell.

Thanks for the suggestion, but that isn't really what I had in mind. That might be a good way of converting the old Power Word spells, though.