Balancing Single-Attack Powers with Multi-Attack Powers

[Zelc]

Option 0: comrade raoul's fix
Suggested Houserule:
All non-Ranger at-will or encounter powers that hit more than once must be made against separate targets. Non-Ranger multi-attack encounter powers that have an effect resulting from hitting the same target more than once are instead bumped up to a Daily power of the next tier of dailies and can hit the same target more than once (may need to be given Miss: Half Damage?).

Why:
Well, spreading damage out amongst multiple targets is far less objectionable and powerful than massive damage against one target. This is also very simple and doesn't mess with the math behind monster HPs and such. However, this doesn't do anything about the extremely high Ranger DPR.

Option 1: Monster resistances
Suggested Houserule:
Cut monster HP by some percent (20% as a guesstimate?), give them more resist all at the enhancement bonus levels:

Resist All (stacks with other resistances):
Monster Lvl 01: +1
Monster Lvl 06: +2
Monster Lvl 11: +3
Monster Lvl 16: +4
Monster Lvl 21: +5
Monster Lvl 26: +6

Why:
Basically, your weapon's enhancement bonus is canceled out by the higher resistances, so the enhancement bonus is equally effective for single-attack powers and multi-attack powers. Multi-attack powers still gain more benefit from Weapon Focus (oh well). However, multi-attack powers still synergize better with stuff that grant vulnerabilities (Lasting Frost should be nerfed, but there's always power-imposed vulnerabilities). Plus, there's Irresistible Flame and Flaming weapons. Meh.


Option 2: Apply non-power damage bonuses once per creature per power per round
Suggested houserule (thanks to JoeNotCharles for rewording):
Whenever a single action causes several melee or ranged attacks on the same target, do not roll separate damage for each attack. Instead, add up the damage given for each attack and treat this as a single damage roll. For example, Two-Fanged Strike with a ranged weapon does 1[W] + Dex modifier damage per attack, plus Wis modifier damage if both attacks hit. So if you hit once, you do 1[W] + Dex modifier damage and if you hit twice you do 2[W] + Dex modifier + Dex modifier + Wis modifier damage. Other bonuses or penalties that affect damage such as enhancement bonuses, feat bonuses, and resistances and vulnerabilities only apply once to each target.

Why:
Multi-attack powers will still benefit because people have more chances to hit, but instead of N attacks adding {damage x hit chance x N} expected damage, it now only adds {damage x [(1-(miss chance)^N)]} in expected damage. For two attacks and a 50% hit chance, each point of bonus damage adds 1 point of expected damage under the normal rules and 0.75 points of expected damage under the houserule, compared with 0.5 expected damage for a single attack power.

Also, it balances resistances against multi-attack powers. A character with multi-attack powers shouldn't be overpowered against monsters without resists and really sucky against monsters with resists.

More extreme version:
All fixed-value damage bonuses or penalties not specified in the power used is applied only on the damage roll associated with the first attack roll associated with this power against a creature per round. If the first attack roll against the target doesn't hit, the damage bonuses or penalties do not apply.

It's harder to implement and you have to ask why a monster's resists don't apply if the first attack is a miss. However, the less extreme version might not be enough to balance out multi-attack powers, this rule would make a damage bonus equally attractive to single hitters and multi hitters. Anyone volunteer to crunch the numbers ? I'll try to run some when I get the time. If you use that DPR spreadsheet, just put all the bonuses into the Hunter's Quarry column and I think that should work.

 

[CapnZapp]

???

Perhaps you could add an introductory paragraph where you explain the problem that this post is supposed to solve?

 

[comrade raoul]

I think the issue has more to do with particular powers than multiple attacks in general: I don't think things really got out of hand until Martial Power. I'm pretty okay with the ranger being able to hit a single opponent more than once--it's a neat perk distinctive of the class, and, given the ranger's striker credentials, I don't think it's overpowering.

How would it be if only rangers got at-will or encounter powers that allowed them to hit a single target more than once? You could then (a) require that any multi-hitting power requires either two melee weapons or a ranged weapon, as in the PH, and (b) modify existing at-will or encounter multi-hitting powers from other classes (like the fighter) by either:

• Requiring that each attack target a different opponent, or
• Change the power (possibly by increasing the damage or dealing damage on a miss) to a daily power.

Thus tempest fighters, for example, would mostly be good at spreading their attacks out among a lot of opponents: they could get single-target multi-hitters only with their dailies or by paying feats to multiclass into ranger. (You might change Dual Strike so that it could only be used against two opponents, rather than one. Similarly, Rain of Blows is more credible as a low-level daily power than as an encounter power.) In this respect, they'd be more like controllers than strikers--which I think is appropriate.

 

[Zelc]

Crossposted with comrade raoul. I know, I had the post screen up for a long time .

???

Perhaps you could add an introductory paragraph where you explain the problem that this post is supposed to solve?

I thought it was fairly common knowledge that multi-attack powers such as Twin Strike are too good? And that's a major reason behind the Ranger and Tempest Fighters dealing so much DPR?

Compare Rain of Blows (Fighter Encounter 3) with No Mercy (Fighter Daily 29). If you hit 50% of the time, Rain of Blows will hit an average of 1.5 times and No Mercy will hit an average of 0.5 times. So, No Mercy's expected damage is 3.5[W] + 0.5*Bonus Damage and Rain of Blows's expected damage is 1.5[W] + 1.5*Bonus Damage. Simplify, and you get that if 2[W] < 1*Bonus Damage, Rain of Blows will do more damage than No Mercy. The highest realistic [W] you'll have has an average of 8 damage, and 2x that is 16. A Strength modifier of +10 and a +6 weapon will make the damage output of the two powers equal (and then there's Weapon Focus, crits, etc etc etc).

 

[Zelc]

I think the issue has more to do with particular powers than multiple attacks in general: I don't think things really got out of hand until Martial Power. I'm pretty okay with the ranger being able to hit a single opponent more than once--it's a neat perk distinctive of the class, and, given the ranger's striker credentials, I don't think it's overpowering.

How would it be if only rangers got at-will or encounter powers that allowed them to hit a single target more than once? You could then (a) require that any multi-hitting power requires either two melee weapons or a ranged weapon, as in the PH, and (b) modify existing at-will or encounter multi-hitting powers from other classes (like the fighter) by either:

• Requiring that each attack target a different opponent, or
• Change the power (possibly by increasing the damage or dealing damage on a miss) to a daily power.

Thus tempest fighters, for example, would mostly be good at spreading their attacks out among a lot of opponents: they could get single-target multi-hitters only with their dailies or by paying feats to multiclass into ranger. (You might change Dual Strike so that it could only be used against two opponents, rather than one. Similarly, Rain of Blows is more credible as a low-level daily power than as an encounter power.) In this respect, they'd be more like controllers than strikers--which I think is appropriate.

This is a very interesting idea, and I think it should get another look. It's much simpler than my proposed houserules, which is a HUGE plus.

My gut reaction is I'm not sure if it works. It'll probably work for Tempest Fighters, but Rangers will still be by far the highest DPR class in the game, and they are sturdier than Rogues which just isn't right. Melee Rangers deal much more damage than and are a bit tougher than Rogues thanks to higher AC and free Toughness and utility powers. Ranged Rangers probably deal comparative damage to Rogues, but they do it from range 20.

By the way, Rain of Blows isn't balanced as a low level daily power, but it is probably balanced if all hits must be made on separate targets.

 

[comrade raoul]

This is a very interesting idea, and I think it should get another look. It's much simpler than my proposed houserules, which is a HUGE plus.

My gut reaction is I'm not sure if it works. It'll probably work for Tempest Fighters, but Rangers will still be by far the highest DPR class in the game, and they are sturdier than Rogues which just isn't right. Melee Rangers deal much more damage than and are a bit tougher than Rogues thanks to higher AC and free Toughness and utility powers. Ranged Rangers probably deal comparative damage to Rogues, but they do it from range 20.

Exactly. I think it depends on whether or not the ranger's balanced as a striker, and, if not, where the problem is. (Is the ranger broken, or the stormwarden/pit fighter?) I honestly don't know!

 

[Zelc]

I think it's the multi-hit powers; the other abilities simply act like damage bonuses that like any are exacerbated by the multiple hits.

I just thought of simpler way to word Option 2. Hits after the first deal X*1/2*Ability modifier damage instead of X[W] damage. Basically, it removes the extra damage bonuses like from enhancement bonuses or Weapon Focus because the latter hits no longer have a damage roll. There is still the feast-or-famine issue with resistances and vulnerabilities, but I'm not sure that can be helped X(.

 

[JoeNotCharles]

How about this?

Whenever a single action causes several melee or ranged attacks on the same target, do not roll separate damage for each attack. Instead, add up the damage given for each attack and treat this as a single damage roll. For example, Two-Fanged Strike with a ranged weapon does 1[W] + Dex modifier damage per attack, plus Wis modifier damage if both attacks hit. So if you hit once, you do 1[W] + Dex modifier damage and if you hit twice you do 2[W] + Dex modifier + Dex modifier + Wis modifier damage.

The way the rules are written, this gives you the weapon bonus and all ability bonuses for each attack, but all the other bonuses are added afterward so they'd be added to the total just once. (See the example in the PHB p276: the total of 2[W]+Str modifier damage is given as 2d8+7, with the +7 including the Strength modifier, +2 feat bonus, and +2 enhancement bonus. So the weapon enhancement isn't part of the 2[W] or the Str modifier parts of the damage, it's just an extra that's not explicitly listed and applied at the end.

I believe this is just a rephrasing of Option 2, but it makes more conceptual sense than to apply some parts of the damage to one roll and the rest to another. It also makes it clearer how resistances affect this - they're subtracted, once, from the final total. (This phrasing also reminds me a bit of the "several attack rolls but one damage roll" feature of close and area attacks, which makes it fit the tone of the rules better than the wording of the options above.)

 

[Zelc]

I like! I'd add "Other bonuses or penalties that affect damage such as enhancement bonuses, feat bonuses, and resistances and vulnerabilities only apply once to each target." to it though, just so it's clear.

I think combining comrade raoul's modification for non-Ranger powers and JoeNotCharles's modification for Ranger and daily non-Ranger powers will work wonders. I suppose comrade raoul's modification is not necessary with JoeNotCharles's, but it annoys me that Dual Strike is exactly the same as Twin Strike. Maybe it's just an edit for Dual Strike that's needed. Whatever .