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Old 28th April 2009, 03:57 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Stalker0's Alternate 4e Paladin: The Crusader

A lot of people on the boards have been talking about the desire for a new paladin, one that follows the “A” school of class design.

I’ve had some ideas in my head for alternate ideas to the core and so I thought I would sit down and hammer some of those ideas down.

One thing I miss about the 3e paladin was the subtle shift between high strength and high charisma paladins. The higher your strength, the better your offense. The higher your charisma, the better your healing and defenses. And of course you could have every paladin build in between with a mix of strength and charisma. I think 4e’s builds have taken that away somewhat. The problem with the Paladin is not that’s its mad…it’s that it’s not mad enough! I wish every 4e class had more stats it gained abilities from, and as such widens the door as to the range of builds that are useful.

So with this class, my goal was to make Charisma the primary stat, but to make class abilities that ensured that both wisdom and strength would be of use. And most importantly, that a person getting a mix of wisdom and strength would feel alright in doing so.

So below is my alternate Paladin, the Crusader. I changed all the names to protect the GLS or whatever the OGL has become. I have also referenced the class and power stats, but haven’t directly quoted anything from the book.

Crusader

Primary Ability Scores:
Charisma: Allows access to the Crusader’s raw divine power, granting him powerful attacks.
Wisdom: Allows a Crusader to channel his divine energies into healing and defensive powers to guard his allies.
Strength: A Crusader’s own natural strength can be used to augment the power of some divine attacks.

Armor/Weapon/Implement Proficiencies: Same as Paladin
HP/Defenses/Surges: Same as Paladin

Channel Divinity – The Crusader is not limited to one channel divinity use per encounter.

Interdiction (used to be Divine Mettle)
Same as Divine Mettle, but uses wisdom instead of charisma.

Divine Infusion (used to be Divine Challenge)
You channel the raw divine energies granted to you to enhance your own power or to increase the fortitude of your comrades.
At-will (once per turn) – Minor Action, Close Burst 10
Target: Special, see below.
Effect (ally): The target gains temporary hit points equal to 3 + your wisdom modifier (6+wis at paragon, 9+wisdom at epic). The temporary hitpoints last until they are used, the end of the encounter, or until Divine Infusion is placed on another target.
Effect (you): The target recharges the Crusader’s Smite power. The target remains under the effects of Divine Infusion until the end of the encounter, or until Divine Infusion is placed on another target. Divine Infusion must be reapplied for additional recharges of Crusader’s Smite.

Crusader’s Smite (used to be Divine Strength)
Same as Divine Strength, except:
Action: Free Action
Special: Can only be applied to melee attacks.
Effect: Damage done becomes radiant damage in addition to the bonus damage.

Healing Hands (used to be Lay on Hands)
Same as Lay on Hands

Crusader’s Weapon – A Crusader can use any weapon he wields as a holy symbol for purposes of implement powers he might use. He can apply the weapon’s enhancement modifier to attack and damage with implement attacks, but cannot use the weapon’s proficiency bonus. Further, if a Crusader is using an implement power from another class, he can use his weapon as if it were the proper implement, and can use his charisma modifier for attack rolls and damage rather than the ability score normally used.

Powers: All powers use Charisma for attack and damage. If the power originally used Charisma, and had a secondary affect that is based on wisdom; that is unchanged. If the power originally used Strength, its primary now uses Charisma and its secondary effect uses Strength.
If a power required that the target be marked, change the condition to say: “If the Crusader is under the effect of Divine Infusion.”

Example:
Righteous Fury (was Holy Strike).
Attack: Charisma vs AC
Hit: 1[w]+charisma modifier radiant damage. If you are under the effect of Divine Infusion, you gain a bonus to the damage roll equal to your Strength modifier.



IFAQ (Infrequently asked Questions)

Q: Why is the Crusader’s primary Charisma and not Strength?
A: Two reasons. First one was that the fighter and warlord already provide a good basis for a fighting strength based class, and the cleric I would change to be primarily wisdom. That leaves the paladin and bards as the charismatic meleers, which is a good mix to me. Second, I found it was far less work to make implement and weapon powers worked together if everything was charisma and not strength.

Q: With the way Crusader’s Smite works, is this class a Defender or a Striker?
A: A bit of both. How a Crusader builds his stats and play style helps determine if he is more striker or more defender/leader. Note though that even with a high strength he does not get a lot of the advantages that other strikers do. He doesn’t get extra attack bonuses, he has to apply his extra damage before he hits while strikers can apply it afterwards, he has to use a minor action every round to keep his damage going, and there’s no bonus on a crit.

Q: Doesn’t Divine Infusion steal the Swordmage’s Aegis of shielding mechanic?
A: Yes and no. I still think the Aegis of Shielding is the best defending mechanic so far. Monsters have low damage and lots of hp….so negating some of that low damage is a better defense than applying a little damage to the load of hp. That said; there are big differences. The Crusader gives less temp HP than the swordmage damage negation, but the Crusader’s temp hp can also apply to more kinds of damage and from multiple sources. The Crusader doesn’t apply a -2 to attack rolls (a big difference!), but doesn’t have to use immediate reactions to activate his ability. The Crusader’s power works if he and the target are attacked. And of course, the Crusader can apply a version of his power to himself, which creates a lot of tactical thinking about how and when to use the power.

Q: Why doesn’t the Crusader use a mark like all the other defenders?
A: Because I hate marks. There I said it, wow I feel better I love some of the game design in 4e, I hate marks with a passion. They are a pain to track on the board (especially because they are reapplied every round often to different monsters), and they provide too little benefit innately, it’s always about the secondary thing the defender does that makes the mark worthwhile (doing damage, negating damage, negating movement, etc). If I happen to make alternates to the fighter, swordmage, and warden…you can be guaranteed they won’t have marks either.

Q: What’s the purpose of the Crusader’s Weapon power?
A: The reason I called the class the Crusader (besides every other alternate Paladin out there called a Crusader, thank you very much B09S) is the Crusader’s Weapon magic item that counts as a weapon and an implement. I don’t think its right that some classes need one magic item for offense and others need two. It gets even worse with multiclassing. While WOTC fixed some of the multiclassing issues, this one is still left as a sore thumb. A cleric/wizard for example may need 3 magic items, weapon, holy symbol, and orb. The class ability was designed to fix that, something I would incorporate into nearly all classes should I ever get around to making alternatives. However, it’s an easy ability to drop if you don’t want to mess with multi classing too much.
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Old 28th April 2009, 09:00 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Interesting idea.

As an aside, I'm curious as to what you would do instead of marks since there are things I don't like about them as well.
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Old 28th April 2009, 05:22 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I like it.

If you were to get rid of marks entirely, I think you could just let defender powers work on any one foe who messes with an ally. You grant more versatility to the defender, at the cost of no longer applying a -2 penalty to enemy attacks.

Fighter. Enemies adjacent to the fighter provoke an opportunity attack from the fighter whenever they shift, and whenever they use an attack that doesn't target the fighter. Whenever a fighter hits with an opportunity attack triggered by movement, the movement is stopped.

The fighter loses the Combat Superiority (+Wis on opportunity attacks) ability.


Swordmage. Shielding. As an immediate interrupt when an enemy you can see hits an ally, you can prevent X damage to that ally from that attack.

Assault. As an immediate reaction when an enemy you can see hits an ally, you can teleport up to X squares and make an opportunity attack against the enemy.

Ensnaring?


Warden. I'd need to have my book in front of me to remember how their powers work.
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Old 28th April 2009, 05:37 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerWickett View Post
I like it.

If you were to get rid of marks entirely, I think you could just let defender powers work on any one foe who messes with an ally. You grant more versatility to the defender, at the cost of no longer applying a -2 penalty to enemy attacks.

Fighter. Enemies adjacent to the fighter provoke an opportunity attack from the fighter whenever they shift, and whenever they use an attack that doesn't target the fighter. Whenever a fighter hits with an opportunity attack triggered by movement, the movement is stopped.

The fighter loses the Combat Superiority (+Wis on opportunity attacks) ability.


Swordmage. Shielding. As an immediate interrupt when an enemy you can see hits an ally, you can prevent X damage to that ally from that attack.

Assault. As an immediate reaction when an enemy you can see hits an ally, you can teleport up to X squares and make an opportunity attack against the enemy.

Ensnaring?


Warden. I'd need to have my book in front of me to remember how their powers work.
Do I interpret this right you have made teamed defenders more effective but a single one less so ? oh wait the defending effects are much easier to get so maybe the single defender isnt contributing to the armor class but the swordmage for instance is able to block attacks from any enemy he sees basically all the time... hmmm.

Last edited by Garthanos; 28th April 2009 at 05:44 PM..
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Old 29th April 2009, 05:57 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Hey guys, I've already got some ideas about the other defenders....so care to tell me what you think of this one
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Old 29th April 2009, 09:27 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Hey guys, I've already got some ideas about the other defenders....so care to tell me what you think of this one
Like the induced mad changes - every class should look like that - one favoured main ability and then one secondary ability per build (and please, go over the other classes to do that, especially the wizard).

I'm not sure whether I like Divine Infusion - any reason why you didn't make it a damage ability that triggers on attacking the target?

Cheers, LT.
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Old 29th April 2009, 11:28 AM   #7 (permalink)
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What most caught my eye in the OPs post was the small things that are basically general house rules incorporated intot he Crusader, but which I guess applies to everyone:

1 You can use your weapon as an implement, and you can yous your implement for all the powers you know.

2 You can apply your own primary stat to any multiclass power you learn.

I like #1 a lot but am sceptical of #2; maybe I misread it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerWickett View Post
I like it.

If you were to get rid of marks entirely, I think you could just let defender powers work on any one foe who messes with an ally. You grant more versatility to the defender, at the cost of no longer applying a -2 penalty to enemy attacks.

This is a very interesting idea. While I don't hate marks, I do find them troublesome.

Overall, I think ideas from this tread would fit in a DD 4.1
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Old 29th April 2009, 12:35 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Starfox View Post
What most caught my eye in the OPs post was the small things that are basically general house rules incorporated intot he Crusader, but which I guess applies to everyone:

1 You can use your weapon as an implement, and you can yous your implement for all the powers you know.

2 You can apply your own primary stat to any multiclass power you learn.

I like #1 a lot but am sceptical of #2; maybe I misread it?




This is a very interesting idea. While I don't hate marks, I do find them troublesome.

Overall, I think ideas from this tread would fit in a DD 4.1

Note that what you list as #2 already exists in the game as a bard-only feat, Combat Virtuoso.
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Old 29th April 2009, 12:59 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Note that what you list as #2 already exists in the game as a bard-only feat, Combat Virtuoso.
Combat Viruoso does not apply to damage rolls though so it is further limited.
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Old 29th April 2009, 04:31 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I'd imagine the 'all powers use Charisma' applies just to paladin powers being converted over.
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Old 29th April 2009, 04:49 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I'd imagine the 'all powers use Charisma' applies just to paladin powers being converted over.
Um, the OP says:
Quote:
Further, if a Crusader is using an implement power from another class, he can use his weapon as if it were the proper implement, and can use his charisma modifier for attack rolls and damage rather than the ability score normally used.
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Old 29th April 2009, 07:16 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Oops, I missed that one and read the later one.

So, yeah, that seems poor unless it applies to all classes pretty much.
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Old 29th April 2009, 08:06 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Oops, I missed that one and read the later one.

So, yeah, that seems poor unless it applies to all classes pretty much.
I think that should have been included in multiclassing from the beginning.

Last edited by Tuft; 29th April 2009 at 08:15 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 29th April 2009, 08:19 PM   #14 (permalink)
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If it applies to all multiclasses, sure - I'm not sure that it's desirable to replace damage as well as attack, however, as it means that you're actually better off not caring about the primary, and caring about the secondary.

So like a wizard will do feylock powers better than a feylock, because it will have identical primary and secondary (Int) instead of split.
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Old 30th April 2009, 03:59 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Hey WoTC, are you listening? This is how it should have been done.

I am waiting for your finished product. Sounds great so far.

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Old 30th April 2009, 09:32 PM   #16 (permalink)
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The class itself is OK, but unlike a lot of the other posters here apparently I don't have a problem with marks. Seems to me DI is just another mark that isn't called a mark essentially. Marks allow the designers some control over the effectiveness of certain class features. It seems better to essentially follow that system than to keep inventing endless new ones.

I think switching primary stats of powers simply ends up making it too easy to bolt together cheesy combos to be frank. Multi classing may not have worked out quite the way the designers intended, but it really isn't so bad that we need to wholesale basically allow anyone to pick any power and make it work with their stats. If you want to access a lot of power from a MC then you really need to get the stats to work out for you.

There are certainly some fundamental design issues with 4e, but you can't patch in a fix without more than just superficial stat switching. There REALLY should be just one master power list. Class should simply give you some features and what powers you use should based on that and ability scores. With feats tailored to support specific build concepts then you can use MC strictly to allow acquisition of class features and bonus skills. There is no longer a need for powerswap feats at all at that point. But like I say, you can't just tweak the existing powers, they'd have to all be adjusted and there are plenty that would have to go.
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Old 1st May 2009, 12:17 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbdulAlhazred View Post
The class itself is OK, but unlike a lot of the other posters here apparently I don't have a problem with marks. Seems to me DI is just another mark that isn't called a mark essentially. Marks allow the designers some control over the effectiveness of certain class features. It seems better to essentially follow that system than to keep inventing endless new ones.
The exclusivity of marks seems to bother some people.. the non magical marks are a rather simplistic measure of threat / distraction if I understand what they are simulating correctly... only the most recent threat counts. Maybe somebody has a better idea of how to describe them?

Quote:
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There REALLY should be just one master power list. Class should simply give you some features and what powers you use should based on that and ability scores. With feats tailored to support specific build concepts then you can use MC strictly to allow acquisition of class features and bonus skills. There is no longer a need for powerswap feats at all at that point. But like I say, you can't just tweak the existing powers, they'd have to all be adjusted and there are plenty that would have to go.
Should we build a D&D 5.0 wiki with this in mind or is there already one ;-)
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Old 1st May 2009, 04:43 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Channel Divinity – The Crusader is not limited to one channel divinity use per encounter.
Can't do this -- a paladin of Tempus, for example, would be able to auto-crit on every hit. Other channel divinity feats create similar problems. You could say that paladins can't use feat powers with channel divinity, but that's a bit patchy for my tastes.
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Old 1st May 2009, 08:46 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Can't do this -- a paladin of Tempus, for example, would be able to auto-crit on every hit. Other channel divinity feats create similar problems. You could say that paladins can't use feat powers with channel divinity, but that's a bit patchy for my tastes.
This could be fixed by saying that the powers listed here aren't channel divinity, and then take out the clause about using them without limit.

Although using Tempus isn't a good example, that feat is broken at once per encounter
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Old 1st May 2009, 03:05 PM   #20 (permalink)
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This could be fixed by saying that the powers listed here aren't channel divinity, and then take out the clause about using them without limit.

Although using Tempus isn't a good example, that feat is broken at once per encounter
That works. And yeah, Tempus is superbroken.

But they all pretty much break. Bane: every at will becomes a basic melee attack with +Str damage bonus. Berronar's Salve: everyone gets to spend a healing surge whenever they drop to 0 hit points. Chauntea's Blessing: nobody ever fails a saving throw ever again. Glittergold's Gambit: nobody ever misses ever again. (Well, except you.)

No, that's an immediate interrupt, but still. Anyways, the fix you suggest works.
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