adding Oomph to high-level encounters

[CapnZapp]

This is mainly intended for what I call sandbox games, but as I have realized this label is controversial, I'm simply going to say "this is intended for those games where the players can stumble over a high-level threat (relative to the PCs) they're supposed to run away from rather than engage in combat: resulting in a grindy whiff-fest"...

How about...

For each level the encounter is higher than the party, it (the encounter) gets 1d6 bonus damage per round.
This bonus damage is to be distributed among all the encounter's creatures and all their attacks. If the encounter consists of a single Solo monster, it gets all of them. If the encounter consists of one chieftain and two dozen minion troopers, I'd only give them to the Chieftain (assuming he doesn't miss!). Note how, like striker bonus damage, you (the DM) only need to use these bonus damage dice on attacks that actually hit. You're supposed to be able to deal this extra damage each and every round, so it isn't tied down to any specific combatant or attack form.

Also, feel free to invent more attacks (especially when your only monster is a Solo) and apply the bonus damage to that attack. For instance, you could break the rules and have your Red Dragon do a Bite despite the fact it also does a Double Claw attack. Anything goes, as long as the extra damage is delivered...!

This should ensure that even a regular (non-Elite, non-Solo) monster high above the PCs' level will pack such a punch that the players will have to think twice about engaging it.

The purpose of this is of course that it leads to a better gaming experience. Fighting high-level opponents can be very grindy and whiffy; while this does nothing about the whiff factor, it ensures that PCs who experience a lot of whiff won't be able to continue fighting for the dreaded grind to occur - its offense will simply drive them away.

I hope. Comments?

 

[CapnZapp]

Let's take an example to illustrate.

Let's say I'm running an adventure where the town inn features a petrified Wyvern* (a regular level 10 creature). This is supposed to be an atmospheric addition adding tension: what if the creature is freed from its petrification.

Now, according to the MM, most humanoids (humans, dwarves, elves) are level 2 through 4 (like Elf Archers, Human Guards, or Dwarf Bolters). Fair enough.

Now, a single level 10 monster isn't going to terrify even a small town like this.

A standard party of, say, level 3 is going to kill this monster, probably without any deaths (but possibly so). Certainly if a few town guards or a pair of elven archers show up to help out.

But it will be a long hard fight. Not that this will change the outcome - the fight will simply be whiffy and grindy without purpose.

The disconnect is because this monster isn't intended to be fought by a large group of PCs that low level. And it isn't designed to fight alone. (It's designed to fight in a group of perhaps three or five Wyverns against a level nine party - that will be a standard 4E fight which the game makes interesting and fun)

Now, in a sandb... in a game like mine, that isn't the only kind of scenario I want my game to support. I want a single Wyvern to be terrifying to a low-level party.

And here 4E simply doesn't cut it.

So. What happens if we apply the above rule? Say the PCs are third level, but they get enough help to constitute a level 4 party. Then the Wyvern get 6d6 bonus damage each round.

Ouch. Suddenly the grind disappears - because people will start to die; people will start to flee. The whiff is still there, but now it won't encourage a grindy fight - it will signal "the time to flee".

And we're back to the situation where releasing the Wyvern already at third level is a very very bad idea.

Zapp

*) bonus point for naming the module...

 

[CapnZapp]

You could say this rule is only a quick and dirty way of following the DMG guidelines - after all, this Wyvern "should" be Solo-ified to be used this way.

However, there's nothing wrong with the Wyvern. We certainly don't need it to have a few hundred more hit points and much better defenses. After all, our problem isn't that the fight won't be grindy enough...

What we need it to have is a much improved offense.

So rather than spending an hour creating a Solo Wyvern, the above house-rule seems to be much more directly to the point, or what do you say?

(Remember, it's likely the PCs will have access to Potions of Resistance to Poison before releasing this beast, so even at low level, it's ongoing poison won't be as frightening as you might think)

 

[AllisterH]

1. A single Wyvern versus a 5 person level 4 party is actually tilted in favour of the Wyvern.


Er, your solution GREATLY increases the chance of the rocket tag syndrome.

You're not likely going to get pcs running away since they will be DEAD before they get a chance as your solution is predictaed it seems on the idea that the Wyvern will spread out its attacks.

If the DM simply focus fired on one PC, you're looking at a dead PC.

As an aside, doesn't the DMG recommend NOT putting any individual monster that is above level +5 against the party?

 

[Garthanos]

Accidental encounters come to mind... but I am certain I don't want to make escape more difficult... which is what making them fast and furious means.

This may be cosmetic in some way (if I increase the number of them) but
I think I have decided most of the level 2 to 4 normal soldiery in my stories are minion class... and they will indeed start to die and start to flee.
(using a bloodied minion hr some can at least be bloodied before fleeing).

Does that mean the heros need to run or die too? well... they now realize the help they get from the town/village is kind of temporary... and without quicker --> ie interesting solution, they have a problem in the form of slippery blood spots and their whiffing against the monster is now pointedly scary... it calls for thinking outside the box. If you want things truly scary make sure some of the ally minions have faces and names for the players... its something you see in better horror movies where they give you a connection to characters before killing them off.

 

[LostSoul]

Why use a wyvern? Why not use a cave bear? (Both are 500xp on their own.)

Could this be solved by making sure that your gameworld keeps the possibility for this sort of grind in check?

[sblock=An example]Eg. There are wyverns in your world! They're cool, you love them. So you open up the MM and see - Level 10 Skirmisher. That means a single encounter with one of these guys isn't going to be fun. But an encounter with a number of these guys probably will be.

In your hex, you write down: "A flight of 7 wyverns roost on top of a pillar of stone. PCs who make a DC 20 Perception check (modified by visibility conditions) can spot the wyverns circling around it."

In another hex, you want to have a mean old bear. You open up the MM - cave bear, level 6 elite brute. Cool. He lives there by himself. Maybe a nearby gnome talks to him and gives him honey to keep him off his back.[/sblock]

But - what if the level 3 PCs spot the wyverns and come up with some kind of plan to lure 6 away? I don't know what that plan would be, but let's say it works and leaves one wyvern behind at full health.

The level 3 PCs are in for a grindy fight.

I think the best solution is to recognize that the combat mechanics were not designed for this. I think it would be wrong to use them to resolve this fight. Some other kind of mechanic is probably best.

A skill challenge? (A level 10, complexity 1 skill challenge is worth as much XP as the lone wyvern.)

 

[Garthanos]

I think I need to hear more meat about the idea of combats being handled as a skill challenge... the gambit that resulted in the Wyvern being by itself is certainly just the first part of that challenge right?

How did they kill the dragon smaug...The warlord convinced the village to fight for itself to wear the beast down, perhaps based on history and diplomacy. A hobbit used his stealth and perception skill to find its vulnerable spot. The archer used his family heirloom to make a strikery final touch.

Removing grind by hand waving...ie there were many minions killed, and many arrows fired before that final one. But was a die rolled for each?

 

[CapnZapp]

Why use a wyvern? Why not use a cave bear? (Both are 500xp on their own.)

For no other reason than the module not featuring a petrified bear!

Could this be solved by making sure that your gameworld keeps the possibility for this sort of grind in check?

In general, yes.

In my sandb... in my game, no. That's why I'm having this conversation...

But - what if the level 3 PCs spot the wyverns and come up with some kind of plan to lure 6 away? I don't know what that plan would be, but let's say it works and leaves one wyvern behind at full health.

Well, solving things with more creatures is the standard mode of operations in 4E. It's when more isn't an option this might be an alternative.

I think the best solution is to recognize that the combat mechanics were not designed for this. I think it would be wrong to use them to resolve this fight. Some other kind of mechanic is probably best.

We seem to agree 4E combat isn't flexible enough to handle this. However, we seem to have different opinions on how serious this is. Myself, I'd rather keep a conventional game, where I don't have to turn a combat encounter into something else just because the game designers didn't do their job well enough...

A skill challenge? (A level 10, complexity 1 skill challenge is worth as much XP as the lone wyvern.)

Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm left rather cold with the skill challenges as written. To me they are still at an early beta version, with lots of niggles that still need ironing out.

Perhaps if DMG2 contains a completely revamped chapted on skill challenges that incorporates and condenses the advances in SC design made during the year (I can't be arsed to read through various Dragon Mags to do this myself) with plenty of examples... then perhaps...

But generally, what's wrong with running the encounter using the combat rules just like in every other edition of the game. Just because the game's mechanisms need tweaking (in a direction other than the one envisioned by the designers) doesn't mean it isn't the best and simplest solution!

But thank you for responding! What do you think of my suggested house rule...?

 

[CapnZapp]

As an aside, doesn't the DMG recommend NOT putting any individual monster that is above level +5 against the party?

Yes.

The DMG contains lots of advice, some of which I recommend you to break once in a while.

 

[keterys]

I imagine a group of level 3s and 4s should tear a level 10 single mob apart... since by xp it's actually a level _1_ encounter, and wouldn't get any bonus dice at all, right?