Throngs

[77IM]

A throng is like a swarm, but made of Small-sized or larger creatures. Here are some basic steps to turn any creature into a throng of them. It's sort of like a template, but more like the steps for creating a new elite or solo creature.

Please let me know what you think.

-- 77IM



1. Level: For each additional creature, increase the monster's level by 1. For example, to get the stats of a throng of 9 human guards, start with the stats if a level 3 human guard and increase by 8 levels (for the additional 8 guards) to level 11. Increase all of the creature's stats normally (attack, damage, defenses, hit points, skill checks, ability checks, XP value, etc.) as though you were advancing a single creature.


2. Attacks: For every 5 levels the creature gains, increase the damage of all attacks by one die size, using the rules for large weapons (PHB p.220) as a guideline. If the creature has conditional bonus damage, increase it by one die per 5 levels gained. For example, if a creature deals +2d6 damage when it has combat advantage, it instead deals +3d6 damage

Area attacks have their burst radius increased by 1 (so area burst 2 becomes area burst 3), and add "Miss: half damage" to the attack. Ranged attacks become area burst 1 within short range, and add "Miss: half damage" to the attack.

For a throng of minions, increase their damage by 1 for every 5 levels (in addition to the normal damage increase for gaining levels).

Finally, add an aura attack (if the throng's melee reach is greater than 1, the radius of the aura is equal to the melee reach):

Throng Attack aura 1; the throng makes a melee basic attack against any creature that starts its turn in the aura.


3. Size: The throng is treated as a larger-sized creature, according to the table below. This assumes that the constituent creatures are Small or Medium sized; for Large constituent creatures, increase the throng by an additional size.

Throng Size Table
# : Size
2-4 : Large
5-9 : Huge
10-16 : Gargantuan


4. Resistances and Vulnerability: For every 10 levels the creature gains, increase all of its existing resistances and vulnerabilities by 5. Then, add the following traits (throngs higher than level 5 have increased vulnerability, as shown on the table).

Immune forced movement from melee and ranged attacks; Resist half damage from melee and ranged attacks; Vulnerable 5 against close and area attacks.

Throng Vulnerability
Level : Vulnerability
1-5 : Vulnerable 5
6-15 : Vulnerable 10
16-25 : Vulnerable 15
26+ : Vulnerable 20

A minion throng gains resistance to all damage equal to 10 + 1/2 its level, and doesn't gain any vulnerability to close or area attacks.


5. Throng Traits: All throngs have the following traits and powers:

Throng Movement
A throng can enter or move through an enemy’s space; this movement does not provoke opportunity attacks. An enemy can enter a space occupied by a throng, but the space is considered difficult terrain, and doing so provokes an opportunity attack from the throng. A throng can squeeze through any space large enough to hold even one of its constituent creatures.

Multiple Creatures
The throng counts as multiple separate creatures for the purpose of attacks that target or affect multiple separate creatures. Such an attack can target or affect the throng up to one time per constituent creature.

Walking Wounded
The first time the throng becomes bloodied, it becomes smaller by one size category, and takes a -2 penalty to all defenses for the rest of the encounter.

 

[77IM]

Example

Here is a throng of 9 human guards (3rd level + 8 additional guys = 11th level).


Guard Squadron / Level 11 Soldier
Huge natural humanoid (human, throng) / XP 600

Initiative +9 / Senses Perception +10
Squadron Attack aura 1; the guard squadron uses its halberd attack against any creature that starts its turn in the aura.
HP 111; Bloodied 55; see walking wounded
AC 26; Fortitude 24, Reflex 23, Will 22
Immune forced movement from melee and ranged attacks; Resist half damage from melee and ranged attacks; Vulnerable 10 against close and area attacks
Speed 5; see throng movement

Halberd (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
Reach 2; +18 vs. AC; 1d12 + 7 damage, and the target is marked until the end of the guard squadron’s next turn.
Powerful Strike (standard; recharge ) ✦ Weapon
Close blast 2; +18 vs. AC; 1d12 + 11 damage, and the target is knocked prone.
Crossbow Volley (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
Area burst 1 within 15; +17 vs. AC; 1d12 + 6 damage. Miss: Half damage.
Throng Movement
The guard squadron can enter or move through an enemy’s space; this movement does not provoke opportunity attacks. An enemy can enter a space occupied by the guard squadron, but the space is considered difficult terrain, and doing so provokes an opportunity attack from the guard squadron. The guard squadron can squeeze through any space large enough to hold a Medium sized creature.
Multiple Creatures
The guard squadron counts as up to 9 separate creatures for the purpose of attacks that target or affect multiple separate creatures.
Walking Wounded
The first time the guard squadron becomes bloodied, it becomes smaller by one size category, and takes a -2 penalty to all defenses for the rest of the encounter.

Alignment Any / Languages Common
Skills Streetwise +11
Str 16 (+8) / Dex 14 (+7) / Wis 11 (+5)
Con 15 (+7) / Int 10 (+5) / Cha 12 (+6)
Equipment chainmail x9, halberd x9, crossbow with 20 bolts x9

 

[mlangsdorf]

I've played with this idea in a rawer form and it worked okay but not as well as I'd hope. Melee throngs were fine but ranged throngs lacked hitting power. I think the addition of the area attack, half damage on miss should make them a little more sensible.

The other suggestion I have is that a single throng should always count as multiple targets for powers that target multiple targets. For example, a Fighter could Cleave a throng and do both the [1W]+Str damage and the +Str damage to an adjacent foe to the throng. It's a little weird, but it makes sense if you remember the throng is an abstraction of a bunch of guys, and the Fighter certainly could Cleave two guys standing next to each other.

 

[77IM]

That's a good idea. How does this phrasing sound:

Multiple Creatures
A melee or ranged attack which targets or affects multiple creatures can target the throng more than once in place of targeting additional creatures. The throng takes damage and suffers effects separately from each such attack (although two identical effects do not stack). A single attack can target or affect the throng up to one time per constituent creature.

For the sample creature:

Nine Soldiers
A melee or ranged attack which targets or affects multiple creatures can target the guard squadron more than once in place of targeting additional creatures. The squadron takes damage and suffers effects separately from each such attack (although two identical effects do not stack). A single attack can target or affect the guard squadron up to nine times.

It seems a bit complicated. A simpler alternative:

Multiple Creatures
If the throng the only target of a melee or ranged attack which is capable of targeting multiple creatures, the throng takes full damage (rather than half damage) from the attack.

That doesn't allow cleave to work and is mathematically inferior to attacking multiple times, but it may be faster/easier in play.

Edit: Here's another way to phase it:

Multiple Creatures
The throng counts as multiple separate creatures for the purpose of attacks that target or affect multiple separate creatures. Such an attack can target or affect the throng up to one time per constituent creature.

That captures the spirit of the original intent in a way that isn't overly wordy.

-- 77IM

 

[mlangsdorf]

I think the 3rd is the best wording. It has some weird/reasonable effects like a Battle Captain's Force Retreat being capable destroying an entire throng if the Warlord hits the guy in the center of the line (1W+Str damage and then up to 5d6+5*Str damage if all the secondary attacks hit), but that's also what would happen if a bunch of minions were standing in a 3x3 formation and the Battle Captain did a Force Retreat on them.

 

[77IM]

Playtest Report

I threw some level 9 goblin troops at my 10th-level party (a throng of goblin warriors). It went pretty well. Here was the net results:

1. It took the players a minute to really get the concept. "...I can't get all of them in the blast. Wait, what? It's only one creature? OK...." It doesn't help that they had just been in a fight with 25 level 1 decrepit skeleton minions.

2. The ranged attack needs to have its damage increased in addition to being made an area/miss-half power. I was thinking one or the other, on the grounds that increasing damage dice and adding area/miss-half was two upgrades to the one power. But, in reality the area/miss-half serves to compensate for the lack of aura: melee range throngs are attacking twice a round, effectively, so the ranged attack needs a similar upgrade in addition to its damage.

3. Damage riders (in this case, the goblin's great position power which does +1d6 if they move 4 or more squares) also need their damage increased.

4. I'm not sure the -1 speed "to represent coordinated movement" is really necessary or interesting. It was a particular problem with the above great position power.

5. The shrinkage-when-bloodied was a nice addition, a good visual way to represent bloodied. However, the -2 to attacks meant they were less dangerous, and I kind of think foes should be MORE dangerous when bloodied (otherwise the end of the encounter becomes a sort of mop-up exercise). So, I'm changing that to a defense penalty. Also, I totally forgot to apply the -2 speed for shrinkage, so I'm removing that too (again, it "makes sense" but is not worth the trouble in game play).

6. I'm adding mlangsdorf's suggestion about multiple targets. It seemed to work fine (since most of the powers which hit multiple targets are ranged or melee and so doing half damage).

-- 77IM

 

[Starfox]

I used troop rules much like this in 3E, but I wouldn't bother for 4E. I would simply use the swarm rules, give the throng an appropriately-large size, and otherwise change the powers of a single individual to give the feel of a troop fighting together.

Swarms are IOM one of the rules that really benefited from the increasing simplicity and abstraction of 4E.

 

[77IM]

I would simply use the swarm rules, give the throng an appropriately-large size, and otherwise change the powers of a single individual to give the feel of a troop fighting together.

Uhhh... read again; that's EXACTLY what these rules do. A throng (introduced in Open Grave I) is just a swarm of creatures larger than Tiny.

-- 77IM

 

[Starfox]

Hehe, sorry to be snippy there. Having a mechanism for turning a basic critter into a throng is nice, only I think I would hand-craft them rather than use a template (at least as long as we don't have functioning monster generator).

Ok, to comment on your template instead of on the design behind it; I would put a lot more critters into the throng than you do. The point with a troop or throng is that you stack people in close formation, thereby giving them more punch than the typical lone hero or spread-out skirmisher formation. In the space of a huge creature (15 ft by 15 ft) you can easily put 30 people in close formation and four ranks or as many as 50 if you really pack them up. This need not change any rules statistics; its more of a fluff thing to make it more believable (and make them merit their much higher level and xp value). Right now, if you take 9 people and put them in a throng, their total xp value increases a lot. I think it still would with my method, but not as much (havn't done the actual math).

 

[77IM]

Yeah, I have considered using some sort of exponential number of creatures to determine the size/level increase. Or, just hand-waving it and providing guidelines.

Actually I treat these steps as just guidelines anyway. For example, in the example Guard Squadron, I made their powerful strike into a close burst 2 instead of a melee reach 2. It just seemed right.

-- 77IM