Houseruled Twin Strike

[Enaloindir]

Hello all,

I'm sure I'm not the first one to argue that Twin Strike deals a little too much damage, so perhaps the question I'm asking has been asked before (I searched but didn't find anything).
Anyway, the ranger in our party also agrees that his Twin Strike attacks are dealing way more damage than the other party members'/striker's attacks, and we have come to a reasonable "fix": don't add static damage bonuses twice if you attack only one target. The problem we have is to formulate it cleanly in rules text. We know it's not a requirement, but we'd still like to try.
So if you hit two targets, each of the attacks would deal, e.g., 1d12+5 damage. However, if you hit one target twice, the result should be 2d12+5 damage. If one of the attacks is a critical hit, the damage should be 1d12+12+5+critical stuff, and if both are a critical hit, we would like the result to be 12+12+5+critical stuff.
We've been pondering over this for quite some time, but haven't come up with a good formulation.
Could any of you help?

Thanks!
- Enaloindir

 

[Mentat55]

Based on how the assassin multiattack powers are formulated. The whirling barbarian might also be a good model.

Target: One or two creatures
Attack: Str vs. AC (melee; main weapon and off-hand weapon) or Dex vs. AC (ranged). If you attack one creature, roll two attack rolls and resolve them as a single hit.
Hit: 1[W] damage if one attack roll hits, or 2[W] damage if two attack rolls hit.
Increase to 2[W] damage if one attack roll hits and 4[W] damage if two attack rolls hit at 21st level.

Probably need to be more precise about main and off-hand weapon [W], but this is at least a start.

 

[FireLance]

I had the same idea and came up with the following formulation:

Twin Strike
Ranger Attack 1

At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee or Ranged weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons or a ranged weapon.
Targets: One or two creatures
Attack: Strength vs. AC (melee; main weapon and off-hand weapon) or Dexterity vs. AC (ranged), two attacks. If you attack one target and both attacks hit, resolve them as a single hit.

Hit: 1[W] damage per attack. If you attack one target and both attacks hit, you deal 1[W] (melee; main weapon) + 1[W] (melee; off-hand weapon) or 2[W] damage (ranged) instead.
Level 21: 2[W] damage per attack. If you attack one target and both attacks hit, you deal 2[W] (melee; main weapon) + 2[W] (melee; off-hand weapon) or 4[W] damage (ranged) instead.​

I doesn't address the critical issue, though.

 

[sfedi]

Make two attack rolls:

If both hit, target takes 2[W] if one hit target takes [W].

Yes, it's extremely difficult to write it well, yet we all know what we want.

But you are on the right track: the problem here is the double static damage.

I should note that a desirable feature of Twin Strike would be that only the primary target takes the static bonuses.

So you can use Twin Strike to target a non-minion and then the secondary target would be mainly useful to target minions.

I wouldn't recommend to add static damages to the two targets. Because that would make a Striker do good damage against two targets. He could apply his quarry if he wants more damage to the secondary target.

 

[keterys]

I actually prefer this approach to _all_ multiattack powers. If it hits multiple targets, they all take dice+bonuses. If you hit the same target N times, it takes N-dice, but bonuses only once (and it's done as one damage roll)

There's a little bit of dancing around crits to do too, though.

 

[sfedi]

I actually prefer this approach to _all_ multiattack powers

You mean Areas and Blasts as well?!?!?!?

 

[FireLance]

You mean Areas and Blasts as well?!?!?!?

It is the approach for Area and Close powers: each target hit generally takes the same amount of damage. Stacking of static damage bonuses is seldom a problem with Area and Close powers because few of them (if any) allow you to attack the same target two or more times.

 

[keterys]

Yep, that already is the approach for area and close powers, so no change there Basically: hitting many targets = great! But focus firing a single target much faster than others can? Poor.

 

[BobTheNob]

When I first read twin strike, I get the feeling that I thought exactly what the designers thought when they penned it "Yea...that sounds about right". Now we have been playing for a while and it has proven, hands down, to be the greatest at-will in the game.

I do think it needs a nerf, but its a tough call. I like the idea of two rolls no stacking static damage, but will ask this. If I am using melee weapons, which weapons enhancement bonus applies to the static damage we take? (Primary hand? Better of the two hits?)

There is another approach...more creatures that can reduce normal damage! That would really screw up all those builds based upon hitting targets multiple times!

 

[keterys]

Whenever you make a damage roll, you apply any bonuses to it - taking the better when there are multiple bonuses of the same type.

So, main hand + off hand gives you:
Enhancement: +2 (MH) and +1 (OH) = +2
Feat: Weapon Focus (MH and/or OH) = +1
Item: Iron Armbands (MH and/or OH) = +2

So, +5 instead of +9, if both hit.