Ranged Defender

[Garthanos]

The fighter can already mark those he shoots with a bow... it occured to me that if a ranger can be a long range striker or a short range striker depending on build options and how you put your points in to attributes maybe the fighter could become more flexible as well.

The visualization is a
A movie maneuver where the crossbowman or a Robinhood or William tell style archer who fires off a snapshot attack when there allies/loved ones are threatened hoping to protect them the arrow hitting the enemy in the arm perhaps or enfeebles the attack some other way.

Class Feature Distant Defense.
You can use the power Distance Interference Attack to interfere with the quality of an attack made by your marked enemy and maybe a little more.

Distant Interference
At-Will * Martial, (Weapon) Attack
Immediate interrupt
Requirement: must be wielding a ranged weapon and wearing chain or light armor.
Trigger : your marked opponent makes an attack that does not include you as a target and that attack hits and the target is within 10 squares.
WIS vs REF
Hit: deals damage say 1/2 WIS mod to the attacker and reduces the targets attacks damage by DEX mod.
at 11th level increase damage dealt by 5 and reduced by 5.
at 21st level increase damage dealt by 10 and damage reduced by 10

Is it crazy?

 

[circadianwolf]

It's not crazy; the major issue is that marking mechanisms usually require the defender to be quite close to the target, so that in most situations a marked melee creature can get to the defender without too much trouble if it wishes to do so. A ranged defender of course makes it much more possible for a defender to force the monster to ignore the mark and trigger the retaliation effect; however, since lots of melee defender builds already do this (and swordmages function as a pseudo-ranged defender), it's not as big of an issue as it may initially appear.

Especially considering that--to follow your example--ranged Rangers actually generally deal *higher* damage than melee rangers, and get all the perks of being ranged characters (generally less attacks made against them), I would say a ranged defender like this would be just fine.

 

[Garthanos]

It's not crazy; the major issue is that marking mechanisms usually require the defender to be quite close to the target, so that in most situations a marked melee creature can get to the defender without too much trouble if it wishes to do so. A ranged defender of course makes it much more possible for a defender to force the monster to ignore the mark and trigger the retaliation effect; however, since lots of melee defender builds already do this (and swordmages function as a pseudo-ranged defender), it's not as big of an issue as it may initially appear.

Especially considering that--to follow your example--ranged Rangers actually generally deal *higher* damage than melee rangers, and get all the perks of being ranged characters (generally less attacks made against them), I would say a ranged defender like this would be just fine.

I was patterning after the swordmage ... considered having the power range be short range for whatever weapon you were using...

One issue is to be truly interesting we need some ranged fighter attacks
... we could have them based on either wisdom or dex

Like maybe
Pinning shot : a ranged attack which slows the enemy and prevents them shifting next turn.

Basically the build needs to be somewhat viable without multiclassing or hybriding with ranger/seeker. ;p

 

[Mentat55]

There is a new ranger at-will called Warning Shot, or something like that, which basically lets the ranger make a follow-up attack if the target moves into a particular square (I think, doing this from memory).

I think a ranged defender starts to look a lot like a controller. The big thing that a ranged defender doesn't offer is the "meat shield" aspect of, say, the fighter, warden, or paladin -- because the defender is multiple squares away, he doesn't take the heat off the front line by becoming the target.

Then again, paladins already do this to some extent with Divine Challenge, and swordmages definitely do this -- I think a pretty standard swordmage tactic is to use aegis on a target, then go engage someone else.

 

[Garthanos]

There is a new ranger at-will called Warning Shot, or something like that, which basically lets the ranger make a follow-up attack if the target moves into a particular square (I think, doing this from memory).

I think a ranged defender starts to look a lot like a controller.

Yeah saw that power very cool ... cause the ranger to bleed in to controller territory ... also several seeker powers can be martially flavorable.

A meat shield that isnt a meat shield.
If the ranged defender could spend hit points like fast fatiguing themselves in order to pull of more snap shots... to stop pin enemies from range or even stop completely an additional enemy attack.

The ability to provide flanking is something the ranged defender doesnt give meaningfully.

 

[Storminator]

The defender also gets lots of hp and surges since he's supposed to soak damage. If you're at range you won't be fulfilling this part of the role, so you'll have to address this somehow.

I think the power you've given needs a little tightening up. I would make it a Close Burst 10, drop the requirement that the enemy hits, and lose the armor restrictions. Obviously the effect of the power needs some testing as well, to make sure it's meaningful.

I think it's an interesting idea, but you'll need to make a bunch of ranged powers for the fighter, and by then you're probably making a new class.

PS

 

[Garthanos]

The defender also gets lots of hp and surges since he's supposed to soak damage. If you're at range you won't be fulfilling this part of the role, so you'll have to address this somehow.

Soaking damage means stopping an attack from hitting your enemy plus you loosing some of those resources. See the idea about allowing a voluntary fatiguing of hit points to pull off more snap shots.

I think the power you've given needs a little tightening up.

Agreed about half a minute of thought went in ;p

I would make it a Close Burst 10, drop the requirement that the enemy hits, and lose the armor restrictions.

Perhaps the Armor restrictions were maybe just to get the feature in the first place like the various other builds. Well if the enemy doesnt hit its meaningless to reduce the damage there attack deals but...

Obviously the effect of the power needs some testing as well, to make sure it's meaningful.

The damage could end up just being minion clearing... and damage reduction is certainly faded compared to the swordmages (which is very impressive nerfing).

I think it's an interesting idea, but you'll need to make a bunch of ranged powers for the fighter, and by then you're probably making a new class.

Possibly... especially since many you would add probably exist with a diffferent flavor in the Seeker class.

I am very fond of Robinhood and similar types doing there arrow tricks it occurs to me some of the coolest arrow tricks.. really are defender and controller ones. Not the assassin ones. Does that mean we need a Martial Ranged Controller? as a new class.

 

[knightofround]

This is a very interesting idea from a tactical standpoint, but I think it be very tough to detail it in combat, especially from an NPC perspective. Why would you go after a person plunking arrows at you from afar, when you a have a big nasty Barbarian in front of you? Or if its a rouge, why chase after the arrow guy, completely expose your back to rogue, and provoke OAs to run after this ranged defender? I would think that NPCs would be more likely to violate such a mark than other defenders....turning the class into more of weak striker.

And if you try increase the retributive power of the mark to compensate to the point where they WILL run after you, then the class would be overpowered.

Sorry I'm so pessimistic...I think this is a really cool idea and I would love to see it work, I'm just not sure how. The Ranger power "Warning Shot" falls short for me. (No pun intended)

 

[Kingreaper]

I just don't think marking can really work for a ranged defender in some ways. It doesn't seem quite the right mechanic for them.

My idea of a mechanic for a ranged defender is Guarding.

The RD picks an Ally to Guard. Any enemy (that isn't marked by that Ally) that attacks that ally gets shot.

 

[Garthanos]

.

The RD picks an Ally to Guard. Any enemy (that isn't marked by that Ally) that attacks that ally gets shot.

That is certainly an intriguing idea I was wanting a variant of marking .. that would be guarding not necessarily for a ranged defender either. I was thinking it worked for paladin types and similar.