catastrophic
First Post
Previous thread -
http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-dis...mano-mano-built-1-1-combat-within-battle.html
The Great Beast
The Great Beast is a solo which represents a mighty creature the party cannot yet defeat in battle. The goal of encountering the beast is to escape, or conduct some other manuver around the battlefield, and while that may not be clear at first, it should become clear rapidly enough. This is not the normal premise of a 4e combat encounter, but 4e combat is robust enough to support ideas like this, potentially better than other systems.
Here's the monster sheet.
The monster is made up at 6th level, but levelling it up should be realtivly straightforward- just be sure that the monster does not become stunlocked or otherwise mired in effects from melee powers and encounter powers. Feedback and alternatives are welcome, as this is a perpetual work in progress. There are detailed notes on design and usage after the monster sheet.
NOTE: When using the creature in an encounter, make sure that, after at most a round of combat, the players are very clear on the stakes of the battle- don't let them misunderstand and assume that the creature can be beaten if they just keep swinging, especially if 'balanced encounters' are the status quo of your game.
The monster's powers are set up to aid in this- their charge and defensive reactions in particular are meant to signal that this creature cannot be slain so easily. However, if there is any doubt, talk to your players and explain the stakes and situation to them. If there's a way to defeat the creature, then tell them so, even if you don't point out what it is (and be open to alternative strategies the players come up with). If the object of the fight is to flee, then make that clear as well, and explain how they can do it (EG, what part of the map they need to reach)..
Tactics
TGB is essentially a brute/controller hybrid that deals damage, draws fire, and re-shapes the battlefield. While it's main role is that of a large, damage dealing monster, the actual challenge of fighting it is to manuver effectivley around it. The goal of these manuvers will vary with the encounter TGB is used in.
In one encounter, the goal may simply be to disengange from combat with the beast, and evade it, either by getting some distance from it and using skills like stealth, or by reaching a predetermined point on the map, like the entrance to a cave. In this case, TGB is pretty much chasing the PCs down, knocking them prone, trapping them in difficult terrain, and generally making it hard for them to escape.
On the other hand, TGB could have a lair that the PCs need to enter, like a ruined temple, or remote valley, in order to gather something from it, like ancient stone tablets, or rare herbs. In this case, some PCs can work to keep TGB busy or distracted, while others use their skills and other abilities to recover the goods. After that, fleeing is also likely to be needed.
In any event, the purpose of TGB is not to simply kill the characters. The monster's high damage output can enable that, but then again so can dropping a mountain on the players- overpowering fiat makes for a weak game.
Instead, the challenge here is to recognise that the beast can't be fought by conventional means, and successfully evade and distract it in order for other goals to be achieved. The DM should keep this in mind, and run the monster as a rampaging beast, as opposed to a giant, invincible assasin. TGB will move from one target to the next, often ignoring a severaly damaged target that has been knocked prone.
Of course, it is possible that the right set of PCs could take TGB down- but this is also not the intention of the design. It's important to keep the PCs focused on the goal of he encounter, and comunicate to them that this is not a regular fight. If they're eager for a rematch, they can always return in a few levels, and face TGB again, this time with a more conventional solo monster design.
Usage
The beast is a nonintelligent, rampaging behemoth that resides in a primordial wilderness, far from civilisation. Adventurers might encounter such a creature during their travels through the wilds, perhaps after being forced to travel through it's territory on their way to somewhere else. A truly classic use of such a monster is near the entrance to a dungeon, which can be entered to take shelter from it.
Another idea is to use TGB as an optional encounter. A party could voluntarily enter the territory of the great best - or just a stretch of wilderness known to be very dangerous. They might take this option in return for faster travel time, or to harvest rare magical herbs. Giving them options like this to step outside their comfort zone makes the game more challenging, but keeps them in the driver's seat.
And of course, in a sandbox campaign, TGB is an ideal way to have a powerful creature on a hex, without that meaning all but certain death. Even a high-risk sandbox campaign can benefit from a variety of threats- if it's already near-certain-death to head in some other regions, this is more of an intermediate threat, but one that still can't be cleared easily.
Heroes encountering TGB will rapidly come to realise that they cannot defeat it through conventional means, and will be forced to flee, either to simply evade the beast, or to organise a more well-planned assault.
TGB's combat abilities represent a huge creature that is not really focused on killing the heroes, but simply reacting to them much as a large, angry wild animal would. Think of it like a charging bull, only much, much bigger. The specifics of the creature are left up to the GM, but in general the creature is big, tough, nearly impossible to kill, and fearfully fast when it gets going. It's weight and treat tears up the ground, and it can use a collision or tailswipe not only to damage the ground, but even disrupt magical zones in the area.
By default, think of a four-legged dinosaur or behemoth, possibly a herbivore, but a large, aggressive one with horns, a tail and armoured plates. It charges and rams targets which present themselves, and as it thunders around the battlefield, it knocks trees, boulders, and other bits of debris flying in it's wake, and leaves the ground rent and cratered behind it.
The encounter might involve the creature alone, or it could burst in on a more conventional fight. For instance, the heroes could be raiding a goblin village, only for the sounds of battle to draw the great beast out of the jungle surrounding the village. The encounter could then involve conventional fights with goblin minions, while TGB thunders around knocking down buildings and attacking whatever gets in it's way.
The PCs might even decide to do this on purpose after encountering the creature- luring their foes into it's territory could give them an, albeit unpredictable tactical advantage in a battle. With a bit of work, you could also reskin the monster as for instance, a stampede of smaller herd animals.
The Unbeatable Foe
While concepts like this are often praised by proponents of various play-styles, the idea is rarely implemented well. Such a threat, by definition, is beyond the ability of the pcs to defeat, and in most games, they simply represent an exchange of hit points which doesn't end well for the player characters, or worse yet, save or die or similar outcomes in which player agency is practically non-existent.
4e combat gives us the tools to create more evocative encounters, as long as monster design is suitable, and designing a monster which cannot be beaten- but is still fun to fight- should be viable.
There is an alternative take on a scenario like this, which suggests that it should not be a combat encounter at all- but rather a skill challenge, or other kind of set piece, in which the heroes evade a mighty beast or powerful villain. To me, it feels as if not running the encounter as combat is missing an opportunity. I believe all combats should have alternative victory conditions, and other unique qualities, and a battle with a creature like this is certainly an alternative to the norm.
I've set this monster up as a huge nonintelligent beast, because I think that is the best way to 'sell' the idea of an unwinnable fight to the players, ensure they actually have fun with it, and avoid many of the clear pitfalls of such a premise.
People often endorse this style of play, but when designing support for it, it's vital to recognise the risks involved, risks that individual GMs may not recognise, or may simply ignore. It's all well and good to talk about how much your players enjoy having their rear ends handed to them by your gloating master villains, but a lot of players will find such an experience discouraging and dis-empowering, with good cause.
That's not to say that powerful master villains don't have their place (although they can be a bit cliche), but putting them into a combat encounter involves a lot of risk, and is really going to be more of a main story beat that a GM would design for themselves, as opposed to a self enclosed encounters like the one TGB could be involved in.
Nothing Personal
Even if it's well prepared, an intelligent, unbeatable foe could too easily bring a very negative social dynamic to the table, and make the players feel as if their heroes are not so much heroes, as play-things. The term some use is 'deprotagonisation' - the PCs are meant to be the heroes and main characters of the story (at least in my game), and while challenging them is vital, and the real possibility of failure is a key part of that, this is not the possibility of failure, but rather, failure and success re-framed as something other than 'killing the bad guy'.
TGB works well because even if there is somebody in the group who always wants to 'beat the bad-guy' and isn't going to like an intelligent foe getting one over on them, that person is likely to be more welcoming of a premise like 'run like hell from a charging bull'. Even people who can take defeat in stride tent to get worn out if NPCs are forever getting one over on them. TGB is certainly a meaningful character, but they avoid the often negative social power dynamics that come with a powerful intelligent NPC exerting that power over the PCs.
There's plenty of adventure, risk, and even comedy to be had from the concept, but it's character-light enough that people are less likely to interpret it in a negative way. It's less likely for people to take it personally, and more likely for them to rise to the challenge presented.
That's not to say that TGB should lack character. By it's nature, the creature may not be malevolent, and the players might even come to see it in a sympathetic or protective light as their gain in power.
It could even become an ally of theirs or play a more positive role in their future adventures- as noted above, they might lure an army of their foes into it's territory, or a PC with a connection to nature could even befriend it, once they are wise and mighty enough to stand in front of it without being squashed. Then again, they might just come back later and make armour out of it.
Consolation Prize
Despite the above, if you're worried that your players aren't getting enough out of this fight, consider giving them a bonus. This is an especially good idea if they attempt something that isn't really supported by the style of the fight- for instance, a melee striker who keeps wailing away on the beast, not realising that doing so isn't going to lead to good outcomes, or if the pcs make a creative effort to trap or defeat the best using the landscape, but you feel as if it isn't a suitable outcome.
In cases like this, offering a consolation prize is a good idea.
A melee combatant who managed to damage the beast but seems dissapointed about not being able to slay it, could find that the beastly blood that still clings to their blade can be harvested to form a magical potion or other consumable item- this would be in addition to normal treasure parcels, since consumables are cheap, and not often used in parcels.
A more general idea would be to look at the resources used in the battle, and let them gain some of it back. Encountering such a mighty primal beast might put an adrenaline-fuelled spring in the PC's step, allowing them to recover some of the action points or daily powers they used in the fight. The daily power recovery has been built into this version of the monster.
And of course, it's also down to the stakes of the encounter. As noted above, the encounter could be an optional one, or offer optional rewards within the story and structure of the campaign.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-dis...mano-mano-built-1-1-combat-within-battle.html
The Great Beast
The Great Beast is a solo which represents a mighty creature the party cannot yet defeat in battle. The goal of encountering the beast is to escape, or conduct some other manuver around the battlefield, and while that may not be clear at first, it should become clear rapidly enough. This is not the normal premise of a 4e combat encounter, but 4e combat is robust enough to support ideas like this, potentially better than other systems.
Here's the monster sheet.
The monster is made up at 6th level, but levelling it up should be realtivly straightforward- just be sure that the monster does not become stunlocked or otherwise mired in effects from melee powers and encounter powers. Feedback and alternatives are welcome, as this is a perpetual work in progress. There are detailed notes on design and usage after the monster sheet.
NOTE: When using the creature in an encounter, make sure that, after at most a round of combat, the players are very clear on the stakes of the battle- don't let them misunderstand and assume that the creature can be beaten if they just keep swinging, especially if 'balanced encounters' are the status quo of your game.
The monster's powers are set up to aid in this- their charge and defensive reactions in particular are meant to signal that this creature cannot be slain so easily. However, if there is any doubt, talk to your players and explain the stakes and situation to them. If there's a way to defeat the creature, then tell them so, even if you don't point out what it is (and be open to alternative strategies the players come up with). If the object of the fight is to flee, then make that clear as well, and explain how they can do it (EG, what part of the map they need to reach)..
Tactics
TGB is essentially a brute/controller hybrid that deals damage, draws fire, and re-shapes the battlefield. While it's main role is that of a large, damage dealing monster, the actual challenge of fighting it is to manuver effectivley around it. The goal of these manuvers will vary with the encounter TGB is used in.
In one encounter, the goal may simply be to disengange from combat with the beast, and evade it, either by getting some distance from it and using skills like stealth, or by reaching a predetermined point on the map, like the entrance to a cave. In this case, TGB is pretty much chasing the PCs down, knocking them prone, trapping them in difficult terrain, and generally making it hard for them to escape.
On the other hand, TGB could have a lair that the PCs need to enter, like a ruined temple, or remote valley, in order to gather something from it, like ancient stone tablets, or rare herbs. In this case, some PCs can work to keep TGB busy or distracted, while others use their skills and other abilities to recover the goods. After that, fleeing is also likely to be needed.
In any event, the purpose of TGB is not to simply kill the characters. The monster's high damage output can enable that, but then again so can dropping a mountain on the players- overpowering fiat makes for a weak game.
Instead, the challenge here is to recognise that the beast can't be fought by conventional means, and successfully evade and distract it in order for other goals to be achieved. The DM should keep this in mind, and run the monster as a rampaging beast, as opposed to a giant, invincible assasin. TGB will move from one target to the next, often ignoring a severaly damaged target that has been knocked prone.
Of course, it is possible that the right set of PCs could take TGB down- but this is also not the intention of the design. It's important to keep the PCs focused on the goal of he encounter, and comunicate to them that this is not a regular fight. If they're eager for a rematch, they can always return in a few levels, and face TGB again, this time with a more conventional solo monster design.
Usage
The beast is a nonintelligent, rampaging behemoth that resides in a primordial wilderness, far from civilisation. Adventurers might encounter such a creature during their travels through the wilds, perhaps after being forced to travel through it's territory on their way to somewhere else. A truly classic use of such a monster is near the entrance to a dungeon, which can be entered to take shelter from it.
Another idea is to use TGB as an optional encounter. A party could voluntarily enter the territory of the great best - or just a stretch of wilderness known to be very dangerous. They might take this option in return for faster travel time, or to harvest rare magical herbs. Giving them options like this to step outside their comfort zone makes the game more challenging, but keeps them in the driver's seat.
And of course, in a sandbox campaign, TGB is an ideal way to have a powerful creature on a hex, without that meaning all but certain death. Even a high-risk sandbox campaign can benefit from a variety of threats- if it's already near-certain-death to head in some other regions, this is more of an intermediate threat, but one that still can't be cleared easily.
Heroes encountering TGB will rapidly come to realise that they cannot defeat it through conventional means, and will be forced to flee, either to simply evade the beast, or to organise a more well-planned assault.
TGB's combat abilities represent a huge creature that is not really focused on killing the heroes, but simply reacting to them much as a large, angry wild animal would. Think of it like a charging bull, only much, much bigger. The specifics of the creature are left up to the GM, but in general the creature is big, tough, nearly impossible to kill, and fearfully fast when it gets going. It's weight and treat tears up the ground, and it can use a collision or tailswipe not only to damage the ground, but even disrupt magical zones in the area.
By default, think of a four-legged dinosaur or behemoth, possibly a herbivore, but a large, aggressive one with horns, a tail and armoured plates. It charges and rams targets which present themselves, and as it thunders around the battlefield, it knocks trees, boulders, and other bits of debris flying in it's wake, and leaves the ground rent and cratered behind it.
The encounter might involve the creature alone, or it could burst in on a more conventional fight. For instance, the heroes could be raiding a goblin village, only for the sounds of battle to draw the great beast out of the jungle surrounding the village. The encounter could then involve conventional fights with goblin minions, while TGB thunders around knocking down buildings and attacking whatever gets in it's way.
The PCs might even decide to do this on purpose after encountering the creature- luring their foes into it's territory could give them an, albeit unpredictable tactical advantage in a battle. With a bit of work, you could also reskin the monster as for instance, a stampede of smaller herd animals.
The Unbeatable Foe
While concepts like this are often praised by proponents of various play-styles, the idea is rarely implemented well. Such a threat, by definition, is beyond the ability of the pcs to defeat, and in most games, they simply represent an exchange of hit points which doesn't end well for the player characters, or worse yet, save or die or similar outcomes in which player agency is practically non-existent.
4e combat gives us the tools to create more evocative encounters, as long as monster design is suitable, and designing a monster which cannot be beaten- but is still fun to fight- should be viable.
There is an alternative take on a scenario like this, which suggests that it should not be a combat encounter at all- but rather a skill challenge, or other kind of set piece, in which the heroes evade a mighty beast or powerful villain. To me, it feels as if not running the encounter as combat is missing an opportunity. I believe all combats should have alternative victory conditions, and other unique qualities, and a battle with a creature like this is certainly an alternative to the norm.
I've set this monster up as a huge nonintelligent beast, because I think that is the best way to 'sell' the idea of an unwinnable fight to the players, ensure they actually have fun with it, and avoid many of the clear pitfalls of such a premise.
People often endorse this style of play, but when designing support for it, it's vital to recognise the risks involved, risks that individual GMs may not recognise, or may simply ignore. It's all well and good to talk about how much your players enjoy having their rear ends handed to them by your gloating master villains, but a lot of players will find such an experience discouraging and dis-empowering, with good cause.
That's not to say that powerful master villains don't have their place (although they can be a bit cliche), but putting them into a combat encounter involves a lot of risk, and is really going to be more of a main story beat that a GM would design for themselves, as opposed to a self enclosed encounters like the one TGB could be involved in.
Nothing Personal
Even if it's well prepared, an intelligent, unbeatable foe could too easily bring a very negative social dynamic to the table, and make the players feel as if their heroes are not so much heroes, as play-things. The term some use is 'deprotagonisation' - the PCs are meant to be the heroes and main characters of the story (at least in my game), and while challenging them is vital, and the real possibility of failure is a key part of that, this is not the possibility of failure, but rather, failure and success re-framed as something other than 'killing the bad guy'.
TGB works well because even if there is somebody in the group who always wants to 'beat the bad-guy' and isn't going to like an intelligent foe getting one over on them, that person is likely to be more welcoming of a premise like 'run like hell from a charging bull'. Even people who can take defeat in stride tent to get worn out if NPCs are forever getting one over on them. TGB is certainly a meaningful character, but they avoid the often negative social power dynamics that come with a powerful intelligent NPC exerting that power over the PCs.
There's plenty of adventure, risk, and even comedy to be had from the concept, but it's character-light enough that people are less likely to interpret it in a negative way. It's less likely for people to take it personally, and more likely for them to rise to the challenge presented.
That's not to say that TGB should lack character. By it's nature, the creature may not be malevolent, and the players might even come to see it in a sympathetic or protective light as their gain in power.
It could even become an ally of theirs or play a more positive role in their future adventures- as noted above, they might lure an army of their foes into it's territory, or a PC with a connection to nature could even befriend it, once they are wise and mighty enough to stand in front of it without being squashed. Then again, they might just come back later and make armour out of it.
Consolation Prize
Despite the above, if you're worried that your players aren't getting enough out of this fight, consider giving them a bonus. This is an especially good idea if they attempt something that isn't really supported by the style of the fight- for instance, a melee striker who keeps wailing away on the beast, not realising that doing so isn't going to lead to good outcomes, or if the pcs make a creative effort to trap or defeat the best using the landscape, but you feel as if it isn't a suitable outcome.
In cases like this, offering a consolation prize is a good idea.
A melee combatant who managed to damage the beast but seems dissapointed about not being able to slay it, could find that the beastly blood that still clings to their blade can be harvested to form a magical potion or other consumable item- this would be in addition to normal treasure parcels, since consumables are cheap, and not often used in parcels.
A more general idea would be to look at the resources used in the battle, and let them gain some of it back. Encountering such a mighty primal beast might put an adrenaline-fuelled spring in the PC's step, allowing them to recover some of the action points or daily powers they used in the fight. The daily power recovery has been built into this version of the monster.
And of course, it's also down to the stakes of the encounter. As noted above, the encounter could be an optional one, or offer optional rewards within the story and structure of the campaign.
