Weapons of Speed (semi-new question, not a rant)

[Anubis]

Okay, the DMG lists the market price modifer for a weapon of Speed at +4, but I think that is a bit silly and too much cost for too little return on the investment.

IMC, I have reduced the market price modifier for the weapons of Speed to +1, but now I am having to deal with the Tempest PrC from MotW and have seen the kind of ball breaker that would result in. (IOW, 10 attacks every round!) I realize that having only two extra attacks after the eight may seem like small potatoes, but with Keen Bladed Gauntlets, the Weapon Master PrC, and the Improved Critical feat, it becomes really nasty in a hurry.

Is this just the result of good training by the character, or should weapons of Speed be raised up to a higher market price modifier?

I want honest opinions here. I know +4 is too high, but +1 may not be high enough. How about it?

 

[kreynolds]

I honestly feel that +4 is perfect for weapons of speed. But I wouldn't drop them any lower than +3 if I were to drop them at all. Weapons of speed are powerful at all levels, not just high levels.

 

[Anubis]

Any other thoughts on the subject out there?

 

[Anubis]

The reason I reduced the modifier to +1 from +4 is because Flaming, Frost, and Shock all give +1d6 damage to every single hit, so being able to make an extra attack every round (which does NOT automatically hit like the energy damage does) should not be considered any better.

Think about it. Take a fighter with 16 Str. One possible hit at 1d8+1d6+3 or two possible hits at 1d8+3 each? The first averages 11 damage and the second averages 14 damage assuming both attacks hit. Against higher AC, the extra damage from energy weapons is ALWAYS better because you get almost twice as much damage from a single hit!

Anyway, that is my reasoning.

 

[DM with a vengence]

Consider this, what is more powerful?

a)1d6 points of extra damage that some creatures are immune to, and does not get multiplied in a critical hit

or

b) Effectively an extra partial action that you can use to attack the enemy with your full attack bonus, almost certainly hitting at higher levels, with the chance to make a critical hit.

If your anything but a wizard with 10 str and a dagger, Speed is a much more powerful ability than any of the elemental bonus dice.

 

[Caliber]

Think of this. If Speed is +4, you can have a Flaming Speed weapon and do 1d8 + 1d6 with an extra attack doing the same.

If Speed is +1, you can have a Frost Shock Corrosive Flaming Speed weapon doing 1d8 + 1d6 + 1d6 + 1d6 + 1d6 with an extra attack doing the same.

Extra attacks are a big deal. Sure if you have a Fighter with a 16 Str. What about the Half-Orc Barbarian with the 20 Str and the Greatsword of Speed. 4d6+14 (two attacks at 2d6 + 7) is much better than 2d6 + 7 + 1d6 (Flaming Greatsword)

 

[kreynolds]

Aha! But consider this! Weapons of speed not only grant you an extra attack, but you get this attack even if you use feats like Spring Attack. Move 15 feet, make an attack (standard), make a second attack (speed), move back 15 feet. Ouch. Awfully nasty. And DM with a vengence has a really good point. How many creatures do you know of that are immune to physical attacks? A bit more powerful than flaming, frost, etc, isn't it? (this last part is mostly a statement, not a question.)

 

[Anubis]

Okay, so the real thing here is that Speed is an ability the power level of which changes depending on your class and level. Unfortunately, the ability does not take such things into consideration.

However, brilliant energy is +4, and ghost touch is +1, yet I think ghost touch is quite a bit better, especially considering brilliant energy only bypasses armor and shields. If most creatures actually wore armor as the majority of their AC, being able to hit like with a touch attack would be nice. Brilliant energy does NOT bypass NATURAL armor, however, which makes it kinda useless.

How about the dancing ability, another +4? You certainly get less out of it than you put into that one.

It seems these +4 abilities depends more on your class and level and the DMs campaign more than anything else. I believe +4 is too much. +1 is obviously too little, however.

What would the rest of you place Speed, Brilliant Energy, and Dancing at, and why? I want to consider all possible scenarios here, and want as much input as possible.

 

[mzsylver]

ha!

keep in mind the speed weapon is like a minihaste all day...

also... fear the 20th level rogue with 2 speed weapons. that is an extra 20d6! =)

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Okay, so the real thing here is that Speed is an ability the power level of which changes depending on your class and level. Unfortunately, the ability does not take such things into consideration.

If you give the wizard a +1 Staff of Speed he's not going to get much use out of it. For every other class speed is a fantastic enchantment, easily better than an energy enhancement. Remember that an extra attack allows you to add any modifiers on your attack again. So the fighter adds his strength and specialization bonuses, the rogue adds sneak attack, the paladin gets in another smite, etc. etc. Plus, the extra attack is at the PC's highest attack bonus. Sweet.

However, brilliant energy is +4, and ghost touch is +1, yet I think ghost touch is quite a bit better, especially considering brilliant energy only bypasses armor and shields. If most creatures actually wore armor as the majority of their AC, being able to hit like with a touch attack would be nice. Brilliant energy does NOT bypass NATURAL armor, however, which makes it kinda useless.

The Ghost Touch ability has a very, very narrow range of useful circumstances. Only when fighting incorporeal or ethereal creatures does the power come into play. Thus, while a lifesaver when it's active, it isn't active often enough to warrant higher than a +1. Brilliant Energy is similar in that only a subset of the total battles fought will see it come into play. However, in a campaign heavy on NPCs rather than monsters, Brilliant Energy is devastating. +4 seems good to me. If your campaign doesn't see very many NPC vs. PC battles, then a different enchantment may be more advantageous.

How about the dancing ability, another +4? You certainly get less out of it than you put into that one.

Actually, I'd say dancing is one of the best enchantments. Put a +2 Dancing Greatsword into your Glove of Storing and for 4 rounds, you are getting double your attacks (since it gets as many iterative attacks as you do). Very, very nice.

It seems these +4 abilities depends more on your class and level and the DMs campaign more than anything else. I believe +4 is too much. +1 is obviously too little, however.

What would the rest of you place Speed, Brilliant Energy, and Dancing at, and why? I want to consider all possible scenarios here, and want as much input as possible.

Due to the reasons above, I'd put them at exactly where they are. I think 3e is pretty well-balanced as is. And if I did feel that the equivalent-bonus might be high for a certain ability, I'd probably just drop one down as treasure early, rather than change creation rules. This would let the party have one at a time when the might only be able to create a +1 item, but if later I found it to be a problem, I could easily deal with it in-game. Changing the item creation rules is much harder to remedy later on, without resorting to heavy-handed tactics.

Anyhoo, hope that helped.