Simulated Sandboxes
Posted 16th December 2008 at 10:10 PM by Janx
THe thread on "opposite of railroading" problems lined up with some thoughts I had from Mystery adventures, and simulationist gaming.
Here's the thread:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/general...l-roading.html
Here's most of what I got on simulationist gaming (snipped and tucked from the thread):
As I see it, GMs who try to run simulationist or sandbox games aren't going to be able to do it to the fullest extent of the definition, nor to a "realistic" level. To truly run a simulation, you need a process/methodology for determining everything. And I mean everything, from the exact x,y,z position of every entity in the world, to what they're carrying, to their current mood and goals. At best, a GM can fake it, and that faking it, is actually the same thing GMs in other styles are doing. The sandbox methodology falls into the same category, it's trying to create an open world, which creates a greater burden on the DM to document everything, to create the possibility of what players might do.
A key problem in the sandbox, is like Elder Scrolls: Oblivion does it. A PC can pick up ALL the quests in the game, but never get around to them. And nothing bad happens. And realistically, the GM has to skip applying those consequences, or the campaign world falls into mega-darkness.
What it gets down to is this: Simulationist or sandbox play is trying to achieve the holy grail of RPGs, which is an environment that is completely impartial, yet "realistic". Where it fails, is that it isn't practical for humans to run, and it doesn't always make for a good story. It's too complex to implement human emotion and drive into NPCs, without a GM to fake it.
The extra wrinkle the OP had, was too many ongoing quests, and the players getting indecisive. This too is part of what I see wrong with implementing simulationist/sandbox style (or what happens if done poorly).
My solutions to how I prefer to run things is next:
Problem: the players have too many threads/quests/missions going on
Solution: only give PCs missions/quests/plot hooks related to the current game situation and their PCs goals. On the first game with no real PC goals in a new world, that means giving them a "save the princess" quest that their PCs would undertake. Subsequent games should have missions/side quests related to consequences, new developments, and PC drive goals that develop.
Consider it like real life. If you work for somebody (say as a cop), you get sent on a call, or you see a crime in progress. You don't see 10 crimes in progress, and if you did, you'd still only handle one, and call the others in. Your boss is only going to give you a certain number of projects. If you have side goals (like moving to a new department), you work those angles on the side, while doing the main project.
If you're a freelancer, you don't often get multiple requests at the same time.
Consider it this way, in your sandbox/simulation, the NPCs aren't likely to bring their problems to somebody who's overburdened with their own (like the PCs).
To wrap it further, consider that ultimately, you ARE telling a story. Every PC session is a story, some are just more boring than others (just like every day in your life is a story). Don't make it too convoluted with a million threads. Therefore, talk to the players before you WRITE the next session's material. Ask them, based on the current game situation, what they want to do/pursue/attempt in the next session. Then write to that.
That's actually another part of the solution. Get the party to agree to which "quest(s)" they're actively working on for the next session. Are they going to the Dungeon of Disasterous Doom, or the Cave of Collosal Catastrophe. Commit them to one, and write that dungeon in the next session.
Problem: Too many threads currently in campaign
Solution: The previous solutions are how I avoid the problem of too many threads. Once you got too many, you need to trim them down, to really get the benefit of the advice. Step 1, tell the players you are going to do a new format, as above, to narrow dowb the prep work to just material the players are going to use for the session. Step 2, have NPCs complete some of the other threads, or have them resolve themselves. Basically pull a Mark Twain and drop the magnificent twins down a well, because they weren't as important. Optional Step 3 You can even roll the hero NPCs in later, as the party has to deal with them (perhaps saving the NPCs on a future mission).
Step 4, explain to the PCs that you've done all this to clean up the game world to things the party is actively working on, and they don't need to worry about it. If the old quests come back later, its a so that you can bring new challenges to the party.
This has been nipped/tucked from the original thread. My real points are this:
Simulationist/sandbox play is an illusion created by the DM
This style is hard to implement well by a human GM or computer
This style makes it hard to effect consequences for failure, because with some many things going on (that the party knows about), the consequences take the game where the GM and players may not want it to go.
Lastly, since the GM is the final arbiter of what happens in the game, why are things happening in the game that don't make a good story?
Here's the thread:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/general...l-roading.html
Here's most of what I got on simulationist gaming (snipped and tucked from the thread):
As I see it, GMs who try to run simulationist or sandbox games aren't going to be able to do it to the fullest extent of the definition, nor to a "realistic" level. To truly run a simulation, you need a process/methodology for determining everything. And I mean everything, from the exact x,y,z position of every entity in the world, to what they're carrying, to their current mood and goals. At best, a GM can fake it, and that faking it, is actually the same thing GMs in other styles are doing. The sandbox methodology falls into the same category, it's trying to create an open world, which creates a greater burden on the DM to document everything, to create the possibility of what players might do.
A key problem in the sandbox, is like Elder Scrolls: Oblivion does it. A PC can pick up ALL the quests in the game, but never get around to them. And nothing bad happens. And realistically, the GM has to skip applying those consequences, or the campaign world falls into mega-darkness.
What it gets down to is this: Simulationist or sandbox play is trying to achieve the holy grail of RPGs, which is an environment that is completely impartial, yet "realistic". Where it fails, is that it isn't practical for humans to run, and it doesn't always make for a good story. It's too complex to implement human emotion and drive into NPCs, without a GM to fake it.
The extra wrinkle the OP had, was too many ongoing quests, and the players getting indecisive. This too is part of what I see wrong with implementing simulationist/sandbox style (or what happens if done poorly).
My solutions to how I prefer to run things is next:
Problem: the players have too many threads/quests/missions going on
Solution: only give PCs missions/quests/plot hooks related to the current game situation and their PCs goals. On the first game with no real PC goals in a new world, that means giving them a "save the princess" quest that their PCs would undertake. Subsequent games should have missions/side quests related to consequences, new developments, and PC drive goals that develop.
Consider it like real life. If you work for somebody (say as a cop), you get sent on a call, or you see a crime in progress. You don't see 10 crimes in progress, and if you did, you'd still only handle one, and call the others in. Your boss is only going to give you a certain number of projects. If you have side goals (like moving to a new department), you work those angles on the side, while doing the main project.
If you're a freelancer, you don't often get multiple requests at the same time.
Consider it this way, in your sandbox/simulation, the NPCs aren't likely to bring their problems to somebody who's overburdened with their own (like the PCs).
To wrap it further, consider that ultimately, you ARE telling a story. Every PC session is a story, some are just more boring than others (just like every day in your life is a story). Don't make it too convoluted with a million threads. Therefore, talk to the players before you WRITE the next session's material. Ask them, based on the current game situation, what they want to do/pursue/attempt in the next session. Then write to that.
That's actually another part of the solution. Get the party to agree to which "quest(s)" they're actively working on for the next session. Are they going to the Dungeon of Disasterous Doom, or the Cave of Collosal Catastrophe. Commit them to one, and write that dungeon in the next session.
Problem: Too many threads currently in campaign
Solution: The previous solutions are how I avoid the problem of too many threads. Once you got too many, you need to trim them down, to really get the benefit of the advice. Step 1, tell the players you are going to do a new format, as above, to narrow dowb the prep work to just material the players are going to use for the session. Step 2, have NPCs complete some of the other threads, or have them resolve themselves. Basically pull a Mark Twain and drop the magnificent twins down a well, because they weren't as important. Optional Step 3 You can even roll the hero NPCs in later, as the party has to deal with them (perhaps saving the NPCs on a future mission).
Step 4, explain to the PCs that you've done all this to clean up the game world to things the party is actively working on, and they don't need to worry about it. If the old quests come back later, its a so that you can bring new challenges to the party.
This has been nipped/tucked from the original thread. My real points are this:
Simulationist/sandbox play is an illusion created by the DM
This style is hard to implement well by a human GM or computer
This style makes it hard to effect consequences for failure, because with some many things going on (that the party knows about), the consequences take the game where the GM and players may not want it to go.
Lastly, since the GM is the final arbiter of what happens in the game, why are things happening in the game that don't make a good story?
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