Designer Diary #2: The Philosophy of 4th Edition
Posted 20th January 2010 at 09:41 AM by L5R Design Diaries
Legend of the Five Rings Roleplaying Game, 4th Edition
Designer Diary #2: The Philosophy of 4th Edition
Designer Diary #2: The Philosophy of 4th Edition
Hello there! Welcome back! I hope you’re having a good 2010.
For those of you who were with us last time, you’ll recall that I spent the article discussing how the new edition really got started and the processes that we went through during its creation, design, playtesting… all that good stuff. With that behind us, I’d like to talk a little bit more in depth about the philosophy of the new edition, the specific guidelines under which we operated during the design process. I touched on that a little last time, of course, but hopefully this will give you some new insight into where we are going with the project, and what you can expect from it when it reaches your hands in about five months’ time.
http://www.enworld.org/newsimages/l5rdd2_1.jpg
The first principle is one that I talked about last time, the divorcing of story and mechanics. I’d like to go a little more in depth about our thought processes in that regard this time, if I might. Throughout its history, the L5R RPG has always operated on the assumption that the default setting the majority of its fans were using was the current setting of the CCG storyline. In all honesty, I suspect that’s probably still the case. However, there always have been and always will be a large number of fans who are using the game to tell completely different stories, either running parallel to the canon storyline or completely independent of it. Really, who can blame them? The history of the Empire of Rokugan is very rich and diverse, and the CCG storyline has covered only a tiny fraction of it. Every GM I know, myself included, is an aspiring writer, someone who wants to create their own story. The question we had to ask ourselves, then, was: is what we’re providing meeting the needs of all our fans in the most efficient and accessible way possible? Are there people who are not playing our game because of the way that we are presenting it? We felt that the answer to the first question was most likely “probably not,” and to the second, a much more disturbing “almost certainly.”Let me try and express it in one of my favorite ways, the incredibly convoluted metaphor. Essentially what we were offering the fans of the L5R RPG was combination pizza, with all the toppings. That seemed okay, because a lot of our fans liked combination pizza! And the ones who didn’t… well, we told them that we would love to have them at the table and that they could pick off anything they didn’t want so that they could hang with the rest of us. That didn’t seem quite right to us. I mean, even among the guys who really liked combination pizza, there’s the one guy who doesn’t like mushrooms and picks those off, and another who doesn’t like green peppers, etc. So the decision was that 4th Edition needed to be a buffet where you fix your own pizza. Whatever toppings you want, we provide, and the pizza comes out exactly the way you want it.
I got too caught up with the pizza thing, didn’t I? Sorry about that. I fall in love with words sometimes. Anyway, you see where I’m going with it, I hope. The core rules of 4th Edition provide a basic, iconic version of Rokugan consistent with what so many of us who started off as fans remember from the old days. It’s the Rokugan you fell in love with the first time you saw it, or for our good friend New Player, it’s the thing you’ve heard about from L5R fans for years. We give you everything you need in the core rules to create your own game in your own Rokugan, and the line of sourcebooks we have planned will only increase your ability to customize and tailor the game to your own group’s needs. And hey, if your group’s need happens to be to run a game in the current CCG storyline, you’re going to have everything you need to do that, too.
So, again, that was probably the most significant change made in the new edition, and it was one of the lynchpins that we used when we approached the design of the new game. But it was not the only one! A very important aspect of what we did with this edition involves the relationship between the GM and the Player (whether New or Not-as-New). There have been many wonderful examinations of this relationship, several on this very website, and I don’t want to retread familiar ground in that regard. The core principle is of course that there should not be an adversarial relationship between the two. Everyone knows that! And of course the game should be fun. Everyone knows that too! However, the GM alone cannot be responsible for the level of engagement for the game; there absolutely must be responsibility on the part of the players as well. You’ve probably heard things like this before, but we didn’t simply extend this principle to the narrative of the game, but the mechanics as well.What does that mean, you may well ask? To explain, I have to delve a little into our mindset when we were designing the game. All of us are avid gamers as well as designers, naturally, and Rob even owns a game store. So between the three of us and our different tastes, we’ve seen a lot of games. I mean a lot. And what we have noticed is that there are a lot of games out there that have rules delving into such minute aspects of play that it can and often does promote consideration of the rules above the flow of the game itself. Now that’s a broad generalization, I know, and I know that it depends on the gaming group in question. A good group has a good time playing anything, after all! I think we’ve all seen exchanges like this at one point or another, though:
GM: “The field outside the ruins is dark. The half-moon barely illuminates the area.”
Player 2: “Half-moon? So that’s 20 feet visibility, guys. And I have a lantern, so that bumps it up to 25 feet.”
Player 2: “Don’t forget it’s a hooded lantern from the Unicorn lands. Make that 30 feet.”
GM: “Sure, that’s fine.”
Nothing really wrong with that, is there? Not really. But neither is it what we want to shoot for with 4th Edition. We’re looking for something a little bit more like this:
GM: “The field outside the ruins is dark. The half-moon barely illuminates the area.”
Player: “How far can I see?”
GM: “The lantern’s light barely extends to the treeline. You can see the rustling underbrush, but nothing beyond.”
Player: “Okay, I’m going to string my bow and ready an arrow.”
http://www.enworld.org/newsimages/l5rdd2_3.jpg
It’s a subtle difference, really, but we felt like it was important. In 4th Edition, we don’t want to micro-rule everything down to the letter. You’re having a good time with your GM and your fellow players. You should know one another and know what kind of game you all want to play, and you should be encouraged to work together to achieve it. If a player getting ready for a 4th Edition game says to me, “Hey Shawn, can I do X?”, which is a better response: “Check out the rules for X on pages 136-141!”, or “Depends on the kind of game you’re running. What does your GM say?”Now I’m sure that I’ve just set off alarm bells for several of you, and I totally understand why that is. We’re turning lots of power back over to the GM, and that makes some folks nervous. Maybe they’ve had adversarial GMs in the past and have had bad experiences with it. Or maybe, and this seems much more likely, maybe you think that allowing the GM this much leeway, we must have created a game with obvious holes in it. I’m happy to say that you’re not correct on that one, however. We understand that some folks need the ability to have a more structured game, and we have included the options you need to put that kind of game together with minimal effort. Ultimately it all comes back to the pizza metaphor (sorry, I went there again): if you want heavy structure and rules minutia, you have the option to add those toppings, but for those folks who don’t want it, there’s no pulling everything else off the top before you can eat it. It’s a toolkit, and you can make whatever you want with it. The truth of the matter is that if you’re looking for a dungeon crawl, a straight hunt-and-kill game, or a micro-managing rules-fest, there are options for you here but let’s be honest: there’s other games out there that do those kind of things far better than we can. So we’re sticking with what we know best: telling immersive, engaging, mutually involving stories. That part, I think we do pretty darned well.
Here’s another, probably less controversial design precept of 4th Edition: Simpler is better. I said in the last installment that while I loved Third Edition, it had become bound by mechanics that invaded every aspect of the game. It’s become too intricate, too involved, too complicated. That just won’t do. How many action types were there? Too many, that’s how many! We wanted faster, simpler, and more fun for 4th Edition. We quickly established a system of actions, which we then spent the better part of six months beating to a bloody pulp and rebuilding in a lab. Now, when combat begins in L5R, your character adopts one of the five stances (oh you heard me, there’s five; one for each element) and decides which actions he will take. There are Free Actions, Simple Actions, and Complex Actions, and everything your character can do, from making a Skill Roll to using an Advantage to employing one of his Techniques, is carefully qualified as one of those kind of actions. A melee or ranged attack? It’s a Complex Action up until you get your clan’s Technique that allows you to make certain attacks as Simple Actions (after which point, hello two attacks per round!). Everything is clearly and concisely worded to try and ensure not only that you can understand what to do and when, but that you can get it all on your character sheet with minimal need for book consultation during play.
(On that end, I know that one of my big goals the entire time has been the valiant rallying cry to “Play from the sheet!” I know that Todd gets all giggly when I talk about that, and I’m working with graphic designers to make it happen! This isn’t just some random thing we’re saying to try and bring you in. We want this to be a reality! Although honestly for shugenja players we’ll probably have to give you a second page for all the spells your character will acquire over the course of the campaign. Because of course you will be playing for months and years, you’ll be having so much fun.
)When we’re talking about simplicity, let me briefly revisit the idea that we touched on last time of sacrificing those sacred cows. There are mechanical systems that have been in the game now for two editions or more that we have absolutely torn to shreds and rebuilt. For you Not-as-New Players, there are Advantages, Skills, Schools, Spells, and Kiho that you are never going to see again. Lots of them have changed dramatically or been completely replaced. Kata in particular, the loving creation of my good friend Seth, have been completely redesigned. I loved the idea of them, and what they represented, but I knew of almost no one who used them as is, and that told me that they needed to either be removed outright or completely changed. I was prepared to sacrifice them altogether, but Brian came up with a great new way to use them and I’m very pleased with how simple and intuitive they are now. I hope you’ll agree.
Finally, let me say something about the completeness of 4th Edition. One thing that I personally hate when I buy a sourcebook for a game I love is to discover that the mechanics in the new book refer to some other sourcebook rather than the core book itself. I detest that. Toward that end, we have included virtually everything in the new book. The core mechanics exist on their own, of course, and then the Skills, Advantages, Disadvantages, Schools, and Spells are all right there in the Character Creation chapter for anyone to use. The Advanced Mechanics chapter, however, includes such old friends as Maho, the Shadowlands Taint, the Mass Battle Table, the Minor Clans, the Imperial Families, Ronin, Monks & Kiho, Kata, Ancestors, Alternate Paths, and Advanced Schools. All complete and ready to go if and only if you choose to include them in your game. If you pick up a new book and see new mechanics, you don’t have to wonder what they’re about, because you’ve already seen them in the core rules! Every single supplement will stand entirely on its own without any dependence upon other sourcebooks.(Long time fans may notice that there are a few minor things missing, namely Dojo, Vassal Families, and Heritage Tables. Admittedly, those are very minor things, but frankly the book was getting too crowded. Fortunately, each of those are very short and simple to explain, so once they reappear in the Great Clans hardback we have planned for next year, we can include additions to those systems in subsequent books with a minimal amount of text explaining them, and therefore eliminate any need for a fan of a new sourcebook to have a copy of an old sourcebook in order to make sense of them.)
So that’s a little bit of our philosophy in designing the new edition. I hope I didn’t ramble too much (and again I really apologize for that pizza thing!). Join us in two weeks when my prodigiously talented writing partner Brian Yoon shows up to bring you the word on correcting the mistakes of past editions (which may give you a little bit more insight into some of the new secondary systems you can expect to see in this edition as well).
Total Comments 24
Comments
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Nice blog, very interesting. I especially like it that L5R 4E is going to divorce from Rokugan (which is not a world I particularly like, the reason why I never picked up 3E... I was gutted when DnD3E OA was Rokugan based rather than Kara Tur...but I digress)
So when can we expect to see the finished product or is that unknown?Posted 20th January 2010 at 08:20 PM by mach1.9pants
- It is not divorcing from Rokugan, not at all. L5R wouldn't be L5R without Rokugan. It is divorcing from the metaplot dictated by the CCG's current timeline. The Crane are still the Crane, the Crab are still the Crab, only not the Crane of right now with all the various story implications of the current plot.Posted 20th January 2010 at 08:52 PM by AEG-Todd
- A pizza-toolbox.
Shawn you deserve a pizza-trophy.Posted 21st January 2010 at 01:10 AM by Muchitsujo - As a long time L5R fan (my most successful campaign was a 1st edition campaign that ran from '97 to 2001) I'm really looking forward to this edition.Posted 22nd January 2010 at 03:26 PM by Loki-lie-Smith
- Aah that is a pity, I still may pick it up (I just love reading RPGs, even ones I'll never play) but I was hoping for a more easily ported system. Still thanks for your insights and hope I didn't insult about Rokugan... just not my thing, tight social/cultural restriction games. My down and dirty adventurer players rarely fit in!Posted 24th January 2010 at 07:30 AM by mach1.9pants
- While I think that Third edition was an improvement over 1st edition, and especially 2nd edition, it does have it's flaws. I certainly don't begrudge all the complex additional rules, and really appreciate the idea behind things such as emphasis and mastery abilities for skills, but as a whole the system did start to become somewhat bogged down in them. 1st ed was missing something, and third ed has a little too much (I don't like to talk about 2nd edition), so it sounds like 4th is going to be exactly what I have been looking for out of L5R. Mind you, I play with a pretty experienced group and we just let the GM use a little "handwavium" whenever we don't feel like checking back to the rule book, so I suppose that its not much of an issue. Nonetheless, R&K is at its best when it is simple, to be sure. It is the systems inherent elegance that drew me to it in the first place, and have used variants of it for my own home-brew fantasy systems. A return to a more iconic Rokugan is definitely a great move. My group has played almost nothing but l5r since 3rd edition was released, but we play in the pre/post Scorpion clan coup era. The meta-plot being dictated by the card game players has made for such a convoluted ****fest that we sort of treat it with the same tolerant groan you give that drunk uncle that you used to love when he was sober. I'm excited to see what is done with Kata: I too, loved the idea, but found most of them not worth taking, and awkward to employ in any effective (or dramatic) way. CP points spent on things that do nothing to raise your insight level are precious indeed, so a kata had to be pretty freaking fantastic to be worth taking. Some of them were just laughable - and the Phoenix kata that referenced spears initiative bonus was not a good show... We all know what I'm talking about. I am also very intrigued by the change to five stances. I assumed the three stances in Wicks first ed were based off of the classic "high, low, middle" stances one always sees in martial arts flicks, and I thought it was *brilliant.* I have always been a little annoyed that you can't fight defensively in any regard without sacrificing all of your attacks, however. That's just a stalling tactic. A defensive stance that raises your TN a little bit, or ablates damage in some fashion, but still allows you attack at reduced capacity would allow a PC to fight hordes of lesser opponents more effectively. Which currently - as we all probably know - just kills you dead in previous editions (unless you can hold out on full defense until allies arrive). While I appreciate (love in fact) the lethality of l5r. I am hoping that the fives stances are intended to give you more of a spectrum of attack and defense dependent on situation. Kudos as well, for tying them into the five rings. A unified system always feels more authentic to itself. On a personal note, I am really hoping that 4th ed does more with Iaido than 3rd did. One of my favorite aspects of 1st ed was that your only option to strike on an opening round if your weapon was sheathed was to strike using your iaijustu skill. I found the whole "tn 20" to draw thing somewhat unsatisfying in comparison. But that's a small consideration, and I'm working on talking my group into some house rules in any case. Heritage tables, dojo's, vassel familes and the like are exactly the sort of things that are appropriate for source books - so don't sweat cutting them. All and all, I am looking forward to seeing 4th ed. As my group owns *every* 3rd ed book, it will have to be a pretty fantastic overhaul to get us to bother collecting a whole new edition, but if it turns out anything like how it sounds like it will (unlike a certain other 4th edition of a game that shall remain nameless) I'm seems that I am just going to end up hooking it directly to my veins.Posted 27th January 2010 at 01:28 AM by whiteronin
Updated 27th January 2010 at 01:33 AM by whiteronin - The post above was arranged into paragraphs when I typed it... now it makes less sense.Posted 27th January 2010 at 01:29 AM by whiteronin
- Let me start by saying that I’m glad that you are taking the time to write out what we are to expect in the new edition of what I consider one of the better RPG’s on the market. When I heard about AEG making a 4th edition there was a mixture of excitement and fear. The fear comes from the simple edition parallel to D&D which makes me a little afraid. With that said, the more I read the designer notes, the more I become apprehensive regarding the decision thus far.
The reason I become skeptical is that some of the terminology used in describing the new L5R sounds dangerously close (in some cases almost verbatim) to the design teams description of 4th D&D. They too set out to make a “streamlined” game that was easy to learn for new players. Why? They wanted to World of Warcraft audience to go out and buy their game. This came at a devastating cost to veteran players (as per insider information). It was a bad gamble for more than one reason. First of all, WotC pushed away a loyal fan base who (wait for it) bought books. Second of all, it put their company in the hands of a new fly by night audience of WoW players who may buy the core books and a few others but simply leave the game for a better deal somewhere else. My question is, why would L5R, want to fallow in the same footsteps?
Now, before I’m dismissed as some guy on a posting board, let’s look at this. The game that we all love is being changed drastically and stripped down BECAUSE of a vocal MINORITY on posting boards. To the design teams own admission “Throughout its history, the L5R RPG has always operated on the assumption that the default setting the majority of its fans were using was the current setting of the CCG storyline. In all honesty, I suspect that’s probably still the case.” So you are removing the elements that make L5R what it is for…what? If I want to play a samurai game, I can play L5R (forgetting the plot) or I can play GURPS or HERO, or any number of games that makes generic Samurai. You are removing what makes L5R what it is! How are you “not” making L5R just another version of Oriental Adventures d20? They did the same thing. They focused on Rokugan as a generic world with Samurai and people hated it…now you are telling us that 4th is doing the same thing? It’s crystal clear in the subtext of the last two journals.
Let’s look at L5R as if it were Star Wars for a moment. The reason I use this parallel is because both are built on a strong, rich history that makes up the world. Love it or hate it, Luke Skywalker blew up the death star, Darth Vader was his father and the Yuuzhan Vong invaded in the New Jedi Order series. The point is, if players don’t like this, they can change it as need and wanted by the Gm. The story IS in the gamer’s hands but by downplaying it or removing it, you are simply throwing away what makes your game what it is. You don’t leave out that kind of information from the book.
Let’s focus on the micro issue here. If we are running Star Wars and the Dev team says, “a small number of players don’t like the fact that Jedi HAVE to use the force so we are making it so that players CHOOSE to use the force for their character otherwise they will be warriors with lightsabors. We feel this is best for players who don’t want to be bogged down with back story.” I think that if people heard this, they would have a heart attack…as would I. However, it sounds like this may very well be the case with L5R. If you remove all of the shadowlands rules from the Crab school because it does too much “story rule integration” you are literally destroying the point of the Crab. If players don’t want to deal with shadowlands…then why are they running a Crab?
I’m sorry but I want my Bayushi history and current relevant politics, and I should not have to rush to a confusing, cluttered website in order to find out what Rokugan thinks of the Shosuro family or what the Doji are up to. It should be in the book!
Yes change is needed in order for games to move on, but when things like Dojo, Vassal Families, and Heritage are being removed…yeah..because…they’re not important…to a game like…L5R. That’s the point. The game is based on a rich history and it IS up to new players to learn this history when they start. No they don’t have to memorize (far from it) but that is what makes the characters, and the flavor. It IS the game. Game designers should not be giving into the instant gratification movement lead by wizards of the coast. L5R does not need to go that direction nor should it be on its hands and knees to new players. Old players count too and as WotC are learning; we count more than they anticipated.
Let’s look at the Pizza analogy (I didn’t start it
) If four players want to order pizza three want everything on it and one wants pepperoni, according to AEG, we should order pepperoni and put what we want on it. I am sorry but this does not make any sense. In real life, the guy who does not want everything on it has to pick what he does not like off. Listen AEG, don’t fall into that trap and think that that one player (the WoW player) makes up a magic number that will be your company’s savior. He won’t. The other three players will not respect you for it.
Yes “streamlined” rules are always nice but it should not come at a cost of integrity. I do wish the best of luck to 4th edition L5R and I hope it will be an amazing book. But remember that pictures of samurai and familiar names (Crab, Lion etc) do not make L5R. It is all the “Little” parts that make up the whole and from what I am reading, 4th edition is turning its back. Don’t dumb down a smart game. I don’t appreciate and neither will my group.
-The Ninja
PS: I am your book buying demographic.Posted 28th January 2010 at 08:39 PM by The Ninja - I knew someone was going to have that reaction from the moment I started reading the first blog. I was going to ask about the decision myself.Posted 29th January 2010 at 10:57 PM by SilvercatMoonpaw2
- Honestly, I don't think divorcing (I like that term) the L5R RPG from the plot of the L5R CCG is dumbing down the product. Rokugan is still a rich setting without the CCG plots.Posted 30th January 2010 at 02:41 AM by MGibster
- Thank you MGibster. And yes, he's right. Just because the game is no longer directly tied to the events in the CCG, doesn't mean that anything less of the world is there. The history section covers everything from the Fall of the Kami to the Clan Wars, to Iuchiban, to the Race for the Throne, and even up to the current events going on this year in the meta-plot. It gives plenty of info on what's happened in the official world, but the mechanics are treated such that they are not co-dependant on it. They can live in harmony with it or strike out on their own.
But a Crab is still a Crab, and they still have the same motivations, drives, Clan territories, Clan colors, and giant tetsubos as ever.Posted 1st February 2010 at 05:55 PM by AEG-Todd - Unfortunately I have to agree with "The Ninja" on this one, but before I post my issues I'd like to let the Devs know the I appreciate their passion for the game and the creative process.
Here is my issues with what I am hearing so far; Simplified, Streamlined, Easier, Vague Info and Cater to the New Guy. These are all common tactics used by companies to hype up new products while minimizing critics/customers access to this sparkly new product. To sum it up all I'm seeing is smoke and mirrors. Which kind of reminds me of something another gaming company tried doing recently....hmm who was that exactly, oh yeah WOTC with 4th edition D&D. I wonder how that turned out for them... oh yeah great initial sales but then a drastic drop off and now days even their long term loyalist are wavering. Believe me when I tell you I am part of a large gaming community that plays/buys a large variety of systems and I'll give you one guess which one no one buys anymore.
I as an intelligent consumer would greatly appreciate it if you would let the smoke clear out, remove the mirrors and give me something a little more substantial. We as the gaming community deserve to be given insight and examples what is happening to their beloved products. Lets turn this into an analogy, side note...the Pizza analogy, I have never known or been to a party, family gathering or game that the majority jumped to cater to the minority.
So back to the analogy...Years ago Coca Cola used the strategy a have already mentioned "Smoke and Mirrors" and released New Coke. To their dismay the public rejected New Coke and Coca Cola had to scramble to once again produce the vastly more popular Original Coke. See this analogy works on many levels; 1.) Coca Cola's fans are not as fickle as gamers, 2.) they decided to scrap their previous beloved product in favor of a surprise product they hit the public with and 3.) they abused the trust they work so hard to gain in the first place.
So once again I will ask, give your fans substance and insight, instead of smoke and mirrors; spiced up with a little bit of hype. Before you could ask us to "Trust You" you have to earn the trust and you have to continually gives us a reason to put our trust in you. A friend once told me "If someone asks you to trust them without giving a reason they are looking to deceive you." So please drop the whole mysterious thing, it is a little out dated...well unless your a teenage girl or love everything Twilight.
Before I become too long winded I'll leave you with this final topic. Once again simplify, streamline and to make easier does not mean you have to remove content that makes your setting what it is and why we love it. It simply means to organize and separate material that does not benefit the process. Simply put, put the rules with the rules and keep fluff with the fluff. If you do this you will be able to satisfy both groups, the Roleplayers and the Rollplayers.
Posted 2nd February 2010 at 03:29 AM by The White Wasp -
I didn't want to wade into this, but I feel almost compelled to at this point. We're starting to get into tinfoil hat country in a couple places, and maybe another perspective can head this off. I am in no way involved with the L5R design team, playtesting 4th Edition L5R, or have any professional relationship with AEG other than 'happy consumer', but I think I get what they're trying to say that's being misunderstood - with the disclaimer this is all speculation.
First, we all need to stop acting like superstitious heimin and realize that 4 is a number, like any other, and attempting to conflate 4e D&D with 4th Edition L5R is disingenuous at best, and an attempt to generate marketplace doubt at worst. Was 4th Edition Call of Cthulhu bad? 4th Edition Pendragon? GURPS 4th? The evidence is better for 4th editions being just fine than it is for them being revisionist betrayals of the consumer base, even if it's still the flavor of the month in internet RPG griping. It would likely be best for the discussion if we just stopping involving 4e D&D altogether, in much the same way we're not using the Meiji Restoration as a point for doing away with samurai. They're totally unrelated.
With that said, I'd like to address The Ninja's approach to the pizza analogy. I understand the argument being put forward, but I don't feel it touches on the issue itself as a result of how the entire analogy is being handled. Let me take the premise that Rokugan is the pizza itself, specific timeline events are the toppings, and AEG is trying to sell this pizza. Now unfortunately, due to the expense of converting equipment, competing against their own product, etc, AEG Delivery can only really support one kind of pizza. Now back in the late nineties they brought out a pizza that was unlike any other, and a lot of us I think fell in love with it, hard. The sauce was perfectly spiced to be familiar but not repetitive, the crust thick enough to prevent disaster but thin enough to easily digest...and I'm torturing this sub-analogy to death so I'll stop.
But a company cannot survive on product alone, so they started using promotional events to get customer recommendations for new toppings. This is obviously exciting, people like feeling like they were involved in something they love, and it took off like a rocket. This goes on for years, with people getting interested in the pizza because of the events and vice-versa, but the pizza could only be marketed as Deluxe++; there were so many toppings they were starting to drown out the original flavor. It was still an AEG pizza, but it was more a blend of dozens of flavors than anything.
So now AEG Delivery is talking about overhauling their pizza machines. They want to sell you a plain cheese pizza with a thick coating of that fantastic AEG pizza sauce, and there are people who love green peppers and pineapple and ground beef all speaking out, clamoring that they love the AEG Deluxe++ and won't ever buy this plain pizza - but AEG Delivery has promised to include all the toppings in bags with the pizza, so you can top it precisely to taste - or leave it plain and just enjoy the pizza you fell in love with in 1998. Is your not having to sprinkle the toppings on yourself worth them not selling to people who either pick everything off the Deluxe++ or just don't buy it? I don't feel it is.
Whew, alright, while the irons cool and the servants wash off the rack I'll leave that analogy to heal and address something else. To briefly touch on the Star Wars example, nobody's saying the Yuuzhan Vong don't invade. We're just asking if we could not only have rules for the New Jedi Order. Some of us might still have fond memories of fighting Mandalorians and want to use the Old Republic style Jedi without trying to build them ourselves. I would defy you to find anyone suggesting Force-optional no-lightsaber Jedi. What part of "a basic, iconic version of Rokugan consistent with what so many of us who started off as fans remember from the old days" could make you genuinely think they're talking about "remov(ing) all of the Shadowlands rules from the Crab school"? It requires either skim-reading the posts or straight up making up statements to respond to.
As to The White Wasp's complaints regarding "vague info", you do recognize this is Design Diary entry #2 of 11, right? I'm not surprised they haven't spilled the whole thing in the first 20% of their (for lack of a better term) community outreach information source. The title says it better than I can: "The Philosophy of 4th Edition". That screams "this will be vague". The information about combat stances and action types was way more actual content than I was expecting, and what I feel is the most important entries are coming tomorrow and two weeks later; 'Correcting the Mistakes of the Past' and 'Timeline Neutrality and Finding the Clan Themes' (does nobody read the newsletter?). Those will be your "money" posts for determining if this game is going in a direction you like or not. I'm very excited to see what they feel they got wrong.
In short (HAH!), I think people are choosing to still be smarting from 4e D&D and are projecting this onto 4th Edition L5R. Nobody's talking about removing Dojos, Heritage Tables, and Ancestors, they are (to my reading) talking about moving them back to the Clan Books (which I think is a brilliant move, BTW, the 3rd Edition sourcebook format was a debacle - what if I want to know about Lion at court, or the Phoenix in war?). Nobody's talking about removing the Shadowlands from the rules, but rather about giving you a Shadowlands that doesn't require the Dragon of Air corrupted by the Lying Darkness, Daigotsu, or the Spider Clan (
) - or carving out those details and determining the knock-on mechanical effects yourself.
Now if I may speak to the Dev team for a moment about an issue close to my heart (and angrily shaking fists), though I'm sure it's already been done one way or the other mechanically and I'm just talking to make myself feel better. But this is the first chance I've been pretty sure someone from AEG would read this, so I want to say it now.
Ronin Families. No. Just...no. Besides the fact it's a logical absurdity on its face, Rokugan already has a mechanic for the establishment by the Emperor of a new hereditary lineage with legal rights.
THEY'RE CALLED MINOR CLANS!
Aaaanyway, I've taken enough of your time, but I hope a second perspective on some of the complaints raised will encourage people to look at them in a new light.
Keep on keepin' on, AEG. You're gold in my books.
Posted 2nd February 2010 at 10:13 AM by Simia Saturnalia - You know, I'm not sure how I feel about this conversation. My first thoughts are that people are being a little judgmental without all the facts. Reading the designer notes, I can see why some people could get a little heated over it. Again. I need to see it before I pass judgments.
One thing that I liked about AEG up to this point is that they had a CCG that mixed in with the RPG. I always thought that was really Cool.
It does hurt a bit knowing that they are taking that away. Not sure why though.
OK.. what is with this Pizza talk. I'm not learning anything and it is making me hungry. haha! I have to agree with The Ninja and White Wasp, that if we do go the pizza talk then we should understand that I don't think the game should be looking at the one guy to determan the game and its feel (as The Ninja said). AEG should look at the players they have and not the players they could get. Perhaps thats good buisness or bad. I don't know.
With that said, I can't wait to hear more about the game. It could be a lot of fun. Though I hope it does not become more of a combat game.
Posted 3rd February 2010 at 12:47 AM by Pickson23 -
Sounds mch better to me...Choose whether you wish to keep up with what is happening in another game or don't.
For the record. I like 4e dnd. I (nor my group) play WOW. I liked dnd's version of OA. THAT got me into Rokugan. All this doesn't mean I have a short attention span (when it comes to games anyway). CPosted 4th February 2010 at 01:06 AM by Connorsrpg - Again, I would like to take the time to thank AEG for putting up these designer notes. With that said, I think it’s time for an “All due respect” moment.
Streamlined does not mean removing the flavor. You can’t say things like “Long time fans may notice that there are a few minor things missing, namely Dojo, Vassal Families, and Heritage Tables. Admittedly, those are very minor things, but frankly the book was getting too crowded.” …. So you’re not removing anything important, just things like who a SAMURAI works for and where a SAMURAI comes from and where a SAMURAI trained. That’s not important at all. All a samurai needs is his sword and cool rules to kill monsters.
We may have a problem if you truly feel that this is a miner thing. It’s kind of the foundation of true a character concept. Its tables like that which separate a game like Legend of the Five Rings from say I don’t know…D&D 4th edition. Now on the posting boards at the AEG website, I noticed that it said you were adding new cinematic rule section to the game so that people can get their anima fix. When you decided to add more combat “awesomeness” or as “The White Wasp” put it, Rollplaying to the game how much room did that take up? Just enough to take out the Heritage table perhaps? Other than the reasons I put above, I think this is important because it is the tip of the iceberg of things that may have been removed that are “Minor things” to you. Perhaps to other people it may not be minor. It may be more important than a Samurai doing triple back flips and shooting fire from his eyes.
As The White Wasp put it, there is a lot of “Trust Me” going on and I think that sounds rather familiar. This whole divorce from the CCG issue is INCREADABLY silly. I have yet to hear a good argument for why they are doing it from the Dev team (this includes the Design Diary 3 which I will post my thoughts soon). If the company can’t sell the idea, and its saying trust me (metaphorically), oh brother.
So will I have to do with L5R as I have to do with Star Wars revised –Star Wars Saga edition? I have to keep my revised around because the new saga game designers felt that something “not important” like a STAR CHART was not needed for saga edition? Along with a heck of a lot of other information that was “crowding the book and could easily be found wookipidia” So now I will have to take my 3rd edition book to a (if I buy it) 4th edition L5R game. Brilliant.
This reminds me of a class I took in college, when the professor said to the class, the expression “the customer is always right comes not from a genuine empathy with the customer nor the potential loss or gain of an immediate sales but rather, future sales depending on his happiness.” This leads me to the story.
I was running a white wolf Geist game the other day with my group, which coincidently is not my L5R group (the L5R group is slightly larger). Before the game started, I could not help but bring up this posting thread. Before I did though I wanted to sell them much like the way I was introduced into L5R. I started out by explaining a little bit of the world, then I went on to explain how the CCG has an effect on the world. Every year, the world changes and the players in large tournaments dictate the new history of the story. It’s one of the only RPG’s that has a living, changing world controlled by the players. At this point two of my players who knew nothing about this were hooked. Their eyes were the size of saucers and they looked at me with a big grin on their face. “That is so awesome!” one of the players yelled out.
I continued, Yeah, in second edition, the history was radically different, then when they made third edition. The history had moved on even more. The world was changing and we were playing in its evolving landscape. I explain that I owned a heck of a lot of cards (perhaps $1000) and got into the card game because I found out that it was directly tied to the RPG. I also got into the RPG and own almost every book in the 3rd edition line, and the second edition line (book buying demographic anyone?) They looked at each other (they’re a couple) and said “we should buy the card game, that sounds awesome…Are you planning on running another L5R game?” I then went and explained to them very nicely that they are a little late. According to Dev team of AEG, they want to “divorce” the CCG from the RPG and make RPG its stand alone game. It would still have the previous history but it would not have the current Rokugan issues surrounding it like the other editions. Oh I could still get what I needed from the cluttered website but that whole shtick is for the most part gone.
With almost an outburst of temper, the two players starting complaining about the outrages decision by AEG. “That makes no sense, that is such a cool idea, why would they do that!” or “why would anyone want to buy the card game? It’s just another card game now rather than being something special that affects the RPG!” Even if I wanted to, I could not defend or play devil’s advocate to their complaint. It was valid. They had said everything that I was thinking on the issue. How many people who play BOTH will be unhappy about the change? How many sales will be lost because of the “Divorce?”
They too are major book buyers and card gamers. It is more than questionable if they will buy 4th edition. First off I want them in my L5R game but I don’t have the room for two more players and second, they are very frustrated about the changes made to 4th edition. For them, the combat rules do not really matter. They have not played it to compare, but the “Role” play and story of the game draws them in. They are players (and book buyers) that may not touch the game because of the unwise decision made by AEG. Very frustrating.
As for “The White Wasp”, I would not expect the smoke and mirrors to vanish anytime soon. Most likely they are afraid that they will lose too much of their fan base before the game comes out and they will not be able to make it up with new players. As long as they keep it mysterious, it will keep the fan base just curious enough to go and buy the book to find out for them self. Like D&D 4th edition, the less people know the better. The good news is that they did release some info on the new #3 Journal. But they were still trying their hardest to defend the “Divorce” of the CCG.
Pickson23, yeah, I’m trying to stay away from the pizza talk too. It was explained simple enough in the Designers diary. I don’t know for sure but really it’s just the new trend in RPG companies. They think that any change is obviously an amazing one. From what I understand reading bits here and there. They are trying to make this a more combat sexy game. You can rest sure that flavor was lost for hack and slash gain. It’s a bad move to go that road but I don’t think they care.
I will be moving over to the #3 diary since there were a few things that stood out there. Good and bad.
-The Ninja
The Book Buying DemographicPosted 4th February 2010 at 09:52 AM by The Ninja - Whoah there Ninja. The RPG game being dictated to by a bunch of card gamers through a card game. Sorry, but all members of both our groups find that absurd.
In fact it made sure a L5R campaign was kept getting put back in favour of other games, despite a couple of us owning sev books. Sorry, but no 'OMG what a great idea' ever from our side.
I am all for being able to play Rokugan our way.Posted 4th February 2010 at 10:30 AM by Connorsrpg - "They are trying to make this a more combat sexy game. You can rest sure that flavor was lost for hack and slash gain. It’s a bad move to go that road but I don’t think they care."
Combat was probably the LAST concern overall when it came to a product that is so strongly driven on its setting. I would reckon, looking at my files, that 85% of the book is setting, world, and narrative, while the remainder is combat (character stat blocks and such aside, as that's a given that they relate to combat). I include in that 85% the narrative reasons why honor in combat is important, the reason why the katana is so important, etc.
"AEG should look at the players they have and not the players they could get. Perhaps thats good buisness or bad. I don't know. "
That's extremely BAD business. If you aren't constantly striving to and acquiring new customers in the game market, you're dying. There is no middle ground, given that gamers tend to drift away for random reason #1 or #2.Posted 10th February 2010 at 06:34 PM by AEG-Todd - Oh hey!
yeah, I guess i knew that about good buisness. i can't help but think that what some of the other posters are saying is right.
I only played a few games of OA but it seems like the new game is sounding more like that. I think i would stop playing if it did look like that. if you forget about old players and you don't get new players, isn't that bad buisness? I know your not forgetting about old players but sometimes, i think that too much change is not a good thing, it sound like there is way to much overhalling going on.
i do want to read the book but i'm not sure if im going to buy it. so far it sounds like a lot of change for the sake of sales.Posted 10th February 2010 at 10:50 PM by Pickson23 - Well here's the big secret... everything that a serious game company does is for the sake of sales. Everything. if it wasn't then they wouldn't be in business.
That said, do give us the benefit of the doubt. You've got the lead writer who was in the original first L5R LARP at GenCon, who was writing minor clan fan fiction before he was ever employed, and who even set up the first ever minor clan web site (back in the geocities days).
Your lead producer (me) was sorting Imperial Edition L5R cards in his room at age 17... I started Save the Ogres (and the old school L5R fans will remember that). I helped design the Tomb of the Seven Thunders, the REAL one in Brussels that players got to go into secretly to make the choices that affected their clans.
Rob Hobart (writer) has run Heroes of Rokugan for the last man, what is it, 7 years?
If anyone knows what matters in L5R, its fans. And every single person working on this project is a fan. Just give us the benefit of the doubt.Posted 11th February 2010 at 02:31 PM by AEG-Todd
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