The title says it all. This blog is dedicated to my bi-weekly D&D game that is just starting its 4e run.
10 reasons why 4e isn't WoW
Posted 27th August 2008 at 05:11 AM by Remathilis
Its a common argument: Fourth Edition borrowed heavily from MMOs. Sure. They did. It doesn't make D&D an MMO though. Here are ten reasons why D&D 4e isn't a clone of MMO.
10.) No Level Grind: WoW extends the experience of gaming by making leveling a tedious act. D&D doesn't anymore: 10 roughly equal encounters = a level. That means you can make every encounter "meaningful". Your not fighting hordes of monsters for hours on end to level up to get to the next milestone/item requirement.
09.) No crafting: Another time-waster/game extender is a robust craft system. While 4e does have the enchant/disenchant rituals, they are abstracted to "put gold in, get item out." Complex crafting requires grinding rare components, raising craft skills slowly (often independent of the combat level system)
08.) No PvP (unless you want to): Many MMOs now require some level of PvP (be it combat or capture the flag) to gain the best gear for your class. This makes the game less about a shared experience and more about person-on-person conflict (no different than a good game of half-life). While PC vs. PC has been an element of D&D since inception, there is often no in game benefit from doing so, and the team-based element of the game doesn't allow player-killers to stay long.
07.) No Uber Items: Every character in MMOs lust for that uber-gear: the stuff of legend. Beyond a few classic items (Staff of power, holy avenger) D&D doesn't have "awesomewear" that is the ultimate goal of D&D.
06.) An actual storyline only you effect: Unlike MMOs where everyone fights the same boss battles, completes the same fetch-quests, and talks to the same NPCs for the next quest; you, and your characters alone have done this in the world. YOU fought Dragotha, not just another person in the same world. While we sometimes share common encounters (modules often), our PCs are the ONLY ONES in the world to have done it.
05.) Its your world: You can effect the world beyond the boundaries of the game: Want to build a castle? Save the gold and hire the masons. Want to tear one down? Do it brick by brick. There is no clipping to get stuck in, no "edge of the map" where nothing lives. It exists as an agreement between players, not as a server 10 million people see but never truly affect.
04.) Its your world, part 2: Don't like gnomes? Want a world fashioned around Egyptian vampire-pharoahs? Want pirate-vs-ninja wars? Want a Jedi alongside your paladin? You can! You set the rules. You pick the races, cultures, classes, spells, and everything else. You can't go on WoW and ban gnomes, you have no control. In D&D, you can.
03.) The World Grows Along with You: As PCs affect the world (see 5), your world actually can change. Towns grow or decline. Kingdoms rise and fall. Stone Keep is cleared of orcs and becomes the PCs new home. NPCs and PCs grow up, live, have family, and die. The world is living and growing, and it changes because you say it does.
02.) The Heroes are Special:The PCs are protagonists, not faceless, nameless members of a constantly-spawned "heroes" who do the same quests, fight the same foes, and grind for the same gear. D&D assumes classes heroes are a few select champions among mortals, not one of 100,000 sitting on a server. You're SPECIAL!
01.) Ain't Nothing Like the Real Thing, Baby: MMOs are fun and greatly entertaining, but nothing beats a group of people sitting around a table, eating pizza and drinking Mountain Dew, and telling each other stories of knights and dragons. No game, no computer, can ever match that experience.
While D&D may borrow some ideas from MMOs, D&D is, and will be, its own special animal. D&D cannot replace WoW, WoW cannot replace D&D.
10.) No Level Grind: WoW extends the experience of gaming by making leveling a tedious act. D&D doesn't anymore: 10 roughly equal encounters = a level. That means you can make every encounter "meaningful". Your not fighting hordes of monsters for hours on end to level up to get to the next milestone/item requirement.
09.) No crafting: Another time-waster/game extender is a robust craft system. While 4e does have the enchant/disenchant rituals, they are abstracted to "put gold in, get item out." Complex crafting requires grinding rare components, raising craft skills slowly (often independent of the combat level system)
08.) No PvP (unless you want to): Many MMOs now require some level of PvP (be it combat or capture the flag) to gain the best gear for your class. This makes the game less about a shared experience and more about person-on-person conflict (no different than a good game of half-life). While PC vs. PC has been an element of D&D since inception, there is often no in game benefit from doing so, and the team-based element of the game doesn't allow player-killers to stay long.
07.) No Uber Items: Every character in MMOs lust for that uber-gear: the stuff of legend. Beyond a few classic items (Staff of power, holy avenger) D&D doesn't have "awesomewear" that is the ultimate goal of D&D.
06.) An actual storyline only you effect: Unlike MMOs where everyone fights the same boss battles, completes the same fetch-quests, and talks to the same NPCs for the next quest; you, and your characters alone have done this in the world. YOU fought Dragotha, not just another person in the same world. While we sometimes share common encounters (modules often), our PCs are the ONLY ONES in the world to have done it.
05.) Its your world: You can effect the world beyond the boundaries of the game: Want to build a castle? Save the gold and hire the masons. Want to tear one down? Do it brick by brick. There is no clipping to get stuck in, no "edge of the map" where nothing lives. It exists as an agreement between players, not as a server 10 million people see but never truly affect.
04.) Its your world, part 2: Don't like gnomes? Want a world fashioned around Egyptian vampire-pharoahs? Want pirate-vs-ninja wars? Want a Jedi alongside your paladin? You can! You set the rules. You pick the races, cultures, classes, spells, and everything else. You can't go on WoW and ban gnomes, you have no control. In D&D, you can.
03.) The World Grows Along with You: As PCs affect the world (see 5), your world actually can change. Towns grow or decline. Kingdoms rise and fall. Stone Keep is cleared of orcs and becomes the PCs new home. NPCs and PCs grow up, live, have family, and die. The world is living and growing, and it changes because you say it does.
02.) The Heroes are Special:The PCs are protagonists, not faceless, nameless members of a constantly-spawned "heroes" who do the same quests, fight the same foes, and grind for the same gear. D&D assumes classes heroes are a few select champions among mortals, not one of 100,000 sitting on a server. You're SPECIAL!
01.) Ain't Nothing Like the Real Thing, Baby: MMOs are fun and greatly entertaining, but nothing beats a group of people sitting around a table, eating pizza and drinking Mountain Dew, and telling each other stories of knights and dragons. No game, no computer, can ever match that experience.
While D&D may borrow some ideas from MMOs, D&D is, and will be, its own special animal. D&D cannot replace WoW, WoW cannot replace D&D.
Total Comments 10
Comments
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A-freaking-men. By no means am I a fanboi (I'd rather play my pathfinder campaign), but edition wars is just getting out of hand.Posted 27th August 2008 at 04:13 PM by Ambush
- Great blog post.Posted 28th August 2008 at 09:45 AM by grickherder
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While I do agree with your post I must state that you have not said why 4E is not like WoW. What you have said is that Table Top RPGs are not like PC Online Games. Your title is specific but your reasons are broad, and in the reasons you have posted we can comparitively use any table top RPG. Might I suggest calling this blog "Why 4E is not like a MMO"?Posted 28th August 2008 at 03:00 PM by VanRichten
Updated 28th August 2008 at 05:29 PM by VanRichten -
FYI, most of your points relate to 3e as well, they're not really 4e features, more like D&D features.Posted 29th August 2008 at 12:01 AM by seankreynolds
Updated 29th August 2008 at 12:31 AM by seankreynolds -
Heya, two points.
1.) The post was actually not supposed to be WoW specific (aside from the title)
2.) Similarly, fourth edition didn't magically invent any of this stuff.
The title comes from the almost-cliche argument that "4e is just like WoW" which has come to be gamer shorthand for "Fourth edition has borrowed so much from MMOs its actually closer to them in spirit than it is to previous editions of D&D" which I think it bunk.
Good gamingPosted 29th August 2008 at 01:16 AM by Remathilis - While in your opinion it may be considered a bunk statement. 4E was intentionally designed the way it was in order to hit the MMO crowd. In order to do that it had to be designed in a way that was familiar and likeable to that crowd.
As someone who has ran the gambit of MMO's for the past 8 years I can easily tell you that 4E is more like an MMO than it is D&D. No other edition of D&D has been as close in that regard. There are just too many glaring comparisons that exist to show for this.Posted 29th August 2008 at 02:50 PM by VanRichten - See, that's where I don't buy the argument...
4e borrowed a lot from WoW. True. 4e borrowed a lot from Magic the Gathering (power/spell structure, turn structure, instant/interrupts) and Mage Knight (overall emphasis on mini/skirmish with even strength armies on each side) as well. That doesn't make D&D a CCG (even though WotC will sell you a power-deck come Jan) or a Mini/Skirmish Game (though WotC will sell you random D&D Minis with battlemats as well).
D&D has branched into a lot of other gaming (CCGs, Minis, Online, MMO, boardgames) and borrowed heavily from it. That doesn't make it any of those things. It still makes it D&D, a Table Top RPG game.
I've played MMOs for roughly five years (until my finances no longer supported the hobby) and while I see trace elements of MMO design in 4e, I believe the game is still firmly rooted in the traditions of its predecessor, and the adaptations taken from other games has made it stronger, not worse.
If you disagree, fine enough. Come up with your own reasoning and post it in your blog. I welcome the read!Posted 29th August 2008 at 10:52 PM by Remathilis -
Nice article! I like it but I have to disagree with point 7 somewhat. Getting cool items is a goal in D&D. It's not the main goal but it does rank up near "kill things." Your milage may vary off course.Posted 30th August 2008 at 06:55 AM by MichaelSomething - 10) BS. Other than Skill Challenges, all D&D is is a level grind. And let's not forget the majority of WoW players spend their time in tricky raid fights once they're past the level grind.
9) BS. This contradicts your point #5.
8) BS. WoW has no PvP (unless you want to).
7) BS. Do you even play WoW? There is only one uber item in the game. Every other item is replaced regularly.
6) BS. I played the WoW storyline. I defended Argent Vanguard from the Scourge, and now it is conquered for the Argent Crusade. I didn't see any other players there doing it. That's what Phasing is for. Look it up.
5) BS. Where are the rules for that in the PHB, DMG, or PHB 2?
4) BS. You can try telling players they can't use the rules printed in the books. Most whine until you let them or they find another DM.
3) BS. See #6 and check out the new expansion.
2) BS. The king of Stormwind remembered my name when I came to help him sack Undercity, and no one else was there along side me doing the quests I was phased in. Technically, this is the same as everyone in D&D playing the same published adventure.
1) BS. That's all biased fluff.Posted 22nd August 2009 at 08:38 PM by Sadrx -
Gosh, such a strongly-worded comment to a year-old blog post.
In any case...
That's a fairly sweeping statement. Care to justify it? I think the key point is that while D&D can be played as a level grind, it does not have to be because the PCs can fight a variety of monsters before gaining a level. Fighting an encounter with orcs, or even several encounters with different orcs, is not a level grind. Repeatedly fighting the same encounter with identical orcs is. Perhaps you could argue why WoW encounters can be as varied as 4e encounters.Quote:Originally Posted by Sadrx10) BS. Other than Skill Challenges, all D&D is is a level grind.
I think the point he is trying to make is that the crafting system in 4e is much simpler than in WoW. Instead of having to separately quest for the raw materials, 4e just requires the expenditure of gold - something that the PCs would accumulate as part of regular adventuring and would not need to specially quest for.Quote:Originally Posted by Sadrx9) BS. This contradicts your point #5.
Perhaps a better way to put it is that 4e does not necessarily reward PvP. It depends on the individual DM.Quote:Originally Posted by Sadrx8) BS. WoW has no PvP (unless you want to).
This is what I believe to be the key difference between 4e (or any other P&P RPG) and WoW (or any CRPG). A DM can go beyond the material presented in the rules. Of course, WoW is not a static game either - new classes, races, and mechanics are constantly being introduced. However, (see the next point).Quote:Originally Posted by Sadrx5) BS. Where are the rules for that in the PHB, DMG, or PHB 2?
Some do, some don't. And this is another advantage of 4e compared to WoW: the players can get more individual attention from the DM, and he can tailor the game to suit their individual needs. Of course, a CRPG with a wide variety of choices for the players can approach the adaptability of a human DM, but I believe that the human DM still has the edge for now.Quote:Originally Posted by Sadrx4) BS. You can try telling players they can't use the rules printed in the books. Most whine until you let them or they find another DM.
It is an opinion held by many people who play P&P RPGs, though. Nonetheless, I do agree that it is only an opinion.Quote:Originally Posted by Sadrx1) BS. That's all biased fluff.Posted 27th August 2009 at 01:54 AM by FireLance 
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