Monte Cook's new Grapple rule, and my own

[Noumenon]

Monte Cook wrote on his LiveJournal a few months ago,

New Grapple House Rule

If a character is grappling another and suffers damage, he must make an immediate opposed grapple check with his foe, applying the damage he just suffered as a penalty to his role. If he succeeds, nothing happens. If he fails, his foe gets free if he wants. (If he doesn't want to escape the grapple, you can skip this whole rule.)

The point here is to give a grappled character facing a much tougher foe some chance of escape, either by damaging the foe or via assistance from his friends. It will, however, make evenly matched grapples harder to pull off, but I think I can live with that.

I concluded that this made it too easy to escape a grapple while doing something the players would be doing anyway. Here's my math:

[sblock]So if a level 4 cleric with 14 Str has been grappled by an Owlbear, he has +5 and the Owlbear has +14, so the Owlbear will win 84% of the opposed checks. So if the level 4 wizard Magic Missiles the owlbear, that does 4-10 damage and now the owlbear wins 48-70% of the time, average 57%.

How about a Huge monstrous scorpion with +21 to grapple? It beats the Level 7 cleric's +7 without even trying. Now the level 7 wizard does 8-20 damage with Magic Missile, average 14, giving the cleric a 50-50 chance to escape the grapple. I think the cleric could freely run right up to the scorpion for a touch attack and not even need to worry about a grapple lasting long enough to be constricted.

For the Gargantuan dragon you're talking about; if it spell resists two meteors in a swarm and saves against one it will be taking 17d6, or -60. The level 20 cleric will have a +15 grapple check and escape 86% of the time. Too easy. And of course a 10th level fighter that gets hit by two bugbears won't be able to hold onto their brother more than 40% of the time.[/sblock]

You'd hardly ever have to worry about being grappled long enough to get constricted or swallowed whole that way. So here's a better rule to bring escaping grapples into the realm of possibility:

Don't add in the defender's BAB for grapple checks.

This way monsters will still be able to establish the grapples they're known for, but on your turn, you may be able to escape. For the three examples I checked Monte's rule against, the owlbear gets +9 vs +5 (wins 67%), the huge scorpion gets +14 vs +7 (77%) and the gargantuan dragon gets +24 vs +15 (84%). There are no more auto wins, Escape Artist brings you almost to parity, and Grease can make a huge difference.

For equally matched grapples, at low levels the BAB doesn't matter much. At level 10, when two characters grapple the defender will escape almost 100% of the time if the two are equally matched fighters, 70% if one is a fighter and one is a cleric with -2 Str, 62% if one is a wizard with -4 Str. It used to be a 50%, 33%, and 20% chance to escape.

But this isn't as big a drawback as it seems, because making it easier to escape also makes it easier to do cool stuff in a grapple. Right now escaping is the only action anyone ever takes. But on your turn, when only you get your BAB, now you can move the grapple pretty easily. You can retrieve a spell component, even though it costs you a round. You can probably use the opponent's weapon against him, if you're proficient with it. And you can do all this stuff even when you're alone or your party is pinned down. Monte's rule doesn't help there.

Appendix:
Note: Pinning would be too easy this way. Let them keep their BAB for that check.
Eliminate the -20 penalty for fighting while holding something grappled.
I tried out a couple other house rules before this one, but the math didn't work out:
[sblock]<b>don't add in your Str modifier to grapple checks -- just the size modifier</b>
The owlbear gets +10 versus +5 (wins 70%), the scorpion gets +15 versus +7 (wins 77%), and the dragon gets +46 (wins always).

<b>don't add in a size modifier, just the strength modifier</b>
hurts the owlbear, the dragon still won every time.[/sblock]

 

[El Mahdi]

I like Montes idea, but you're right, it may make things too easy. I'm going to try this out both with Montes idea alone and with your idea added in. Nice job on the work you did. I think I might see how this could work with the Pathfinder Beta version of Grapple also (it seems to be streamlined down considerably). Thanks for the link on Montes idea and for your work. Anything that can help Grapple is a plus in my book.

 

[Betote]

I use Pathfinder's CMB rules for grappling and other maneuvers (and I'm thinking on applying them in conjunction with "Book of Iron Might"), and boy do they accelerate those things

What I have houseruled is that, if a grappling character is dealt damage, it has to make a Fort save at DC 10 + damage suffered. If the save fails, opponent can cut loose. I winged it precisely when a band of 2nd-level PCs fought a giant crab and one of them became grabbed by its pincers.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I think Combat Maneuver Bonus is a fantastic concept. It's got problems that need to be ironed out in implementation (quite a few problems, actually; see the Paizo boards for specific examples), but the idea is fantastic.

I'm always especially careful when messing with grappling rules and monsters. Many monsters will be way under-CRed if grappling for them is nerfed at all. Just for example, a T. rex that can't nearly auto-grapple is basically just a walking sack of XP.

 

[Noumenon]

The Combat Maneuver Bonus looks to be exactly the same as the Grapple bonus (brief Googling), so that shouldn't do anything to help with grapples. Edit: this was incorrect.

The Fort 10 + damage dealt house rule, applied to a T-Rex, means one magic missile from a level 8 wizard gives you a 50-50 chance to escape all by itself. I do think that is too easy. The "defender doesn't add their BAB to the grapple check rule" doesn't nerf the T-Rex nearly as hard. It still has auto-grapple on all of its checks on its turn, and it still wins 84% of the time against a cleric on his turn (+17 versus +8), which is 5 out of every 6 checks.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

The Combat Maneuver Bonus looks to be exactly the same as the Grapple bonus (brief Googling), so that shouldn't do anything to help with grapples.

It's not, and it does.

 

[Noumenon]

OK, I found slightly better links by adding the search terms "medium large" to my search.

I might still be misunderstanding it, but it looks like the differences with Combat Maneuver are:

* Size modifiers are the same as for attack rolls, so Gargantuan gets +4 instead of +12.

This helps with Huge, medium-CR creatures, but not much with larger or stronger ones.

* The defender is assumed to "take 15" on his grapple check. Your combat maneuver bonus is calculated the same as your grapple check (which is why I thought it was the same), but instead of an opposed roll, you just have to beat 15 plus the other guy's bonus.

That seems like it would make escaping a lot harder! Sure you lose fewer checks on your opponent's turn, but when it comes time to escape, instead of a d20 roll you have to beat a 15 -- giving you only a 25% chance to escape a mirror image of yourself, and making it impossible to beat anything that has a +6 advantage in its combined strength, size, and BAB.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

OK, I found slightly better links by adding the search terms "medium large" to my search. I might still be misunderstanding it

Is there a reason you don't just download the rules and actually read them?

 

[Noumenon]

I didn't know they were available. I assumed it was a proprietary product, and it doesn't come up on Google. Am I looking for the Pathfinder RPG Beta PDF? Wish I didn't have to register just to read something.

 

[Kerrick]

Here, I've copied the grapple rules from the Beta:

Combat Maneuver Bonus: Each character and creature has a combat maneuver bonus (or CMB) that represents
its skill at performing and resisting combat maneuvers. A creature’s CMB is determined using the following formula:

CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier

The special size modifier for a creature’s combat maneuver bonus is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8. Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMB when performing specific maneuvers.

Performing a Combat Maneuver: When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While most combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action (in place of a melee attack), others require specif ic actions. Unless otherwise stated, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, add the damage to the DC to perform the maneuver. If your target is immobilized, unconscious, or otherwise incapacitated, your maneuver automatically succeeds. If your target is stunned, you receive a +4 bonus on your attack roll to perform a combat manuever against it.

When you perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB to the result plus any bonuses you might have due to specific feats or abilities. The DC to successfully perform the maneuver is determined using the following formula:

DC = 15 + the target’s CMB

Of particular note is the part I bolded. Since Monte is working for/advising the PF crew, it's little surprise that he posted his new grapple rule on LiveJournal; he probably came up with it for the Beta.

I was going to say that I didn't think dropping the BAB was a good idea, but then I thought about it... a high-level fighter, despite probably being a good grappler, is still only a human. He may be strong and experienced, but he still has a huge size disadvantage against, say, an ogre or a giant. Now, I use the CMB, but I dropped the DC to 10 + target's CMB, but let's try grappling without the BABs:

Let's say Bob the fighter wants to wrestle Grok the ogre in the arena. Bob's a 10th level fighter, and a hefty guy with the Improved Grapple feat; he's got 17 Str. Grok's a more or less normal specimen for his type - he has Str 21. Their CMBs would be:

Bob: +7;

Grok: +6.

(Note: If we use the PF version of Imp. Grapple, Bob's bonus would only be +5.)

If we used the version with BABs, Bob would have CMB +17 (or +15) - he'd tear that ogre apart.

On reflection, I like this rule - it makes grappling more realistic. I played judo in college; I'm not a large guy (5'9"), but in practice, our coach made us work against everyone, regardless of size, so that we could get a broader range of experience. We had a guy on the team who was 6'6" and 290 pounds; let me just say that was nearly impossible for me to pin him because of the size/strength difference, no matter that I was a lot more experienced.