Monte Cook's new Grapple rule, and my own

[Noumenon]

Monte Cook wrote on his LiveJournal a few months ago,

New Grapple House Rule

If a character is grappling another and suffers damage, he must make an immediate opposed grapple check with his foe, applying the damage he just suffered as a penalty to his role. If he succeeds, nothing happens. If he fails, his foe gets free if he wants. (If he doesn't want to escape the grapple, you can skip this whole rule.)

The point here is to give a grappled character facing a much tougher foe some chance of escape, either by damaging the foe or via assistance from his friends. It will, however, make evenly matched grapples harder to pull off, but I think I can live with that.

I concluded that this made it too easy to escape a grapple while doing something the players would be doing anyway. Here's my math:

Spoiler:

So if a level 4 cleric with 14 Str has been grappled by an Owlbear, he has +5 and the Owlbear has +14, so the Owlbear will win 84% of the opposed checks. So if the level 4 wizard Magic Missiles the owlbear, that does 4-10 damage and now the owlbear wins 48-70% of the time, average 57%.

How about a Huge monstrous scorpion with +21 to grapple? It beats the Level 7 cleric's +7 without even trying. Now the level 7 wizard does 8-20 damage with Magic Missile, average 14, giving the cleric a 50-50 chance to escape the grapple. I think the cleric could freely run right up to the scorpion for a touch attack and not even need to worry about a grapple lasting long enough to be constricted.

For the Gargantuan dragon you're talking about; if it spell resists two meteors in a swarm and saves against one it will be taking 17d6, or -60. The level 20 cleric will have a +15 grapple check and escape 86% of the time. Too easy. And of course a 10th level fighter that gets hit by two bugbears won't be able to hold onto their brother more than 40% of the time.

You'd hardly ever have to worry about being grappled long enough to get constricted or swallowed whole that way. So here's a better rule to bring escaping grapples into the realm of possibility:

Don't add in the defender's BAB for grapple checks.

This way monsters will still be able to establish the grapples they're known for, but on your turn, you may be able to escape. For the three examples I checked Monte's rule against, the owlbear gets +9 vs +5 (wins 67%), the huge scorpion gets +14 vs +7 (77%) and the gargantuan dragon gets +24 vs +15 (84%). There are no more auto wins, Escape Artist brings you almost to parity, and Grease can make a huge difference.

For equally matched grapples, at low levels the BAB doesn't matter much. At level 10, when two characters grapple the defender will escape almost 100% of the time if the two are equally matched fighters, 70% if one is a fighter and one is a cleric with -2 Str, 62% if one is a wizard with -4 Str. It used to be a 50%, 33%, and 20% chance to escape.

But this isn't as big a drawback as it seems, because making it easier to escape also makes it easier to do cool stuff in a grapple. Right now escaping is the only action anyone ever takes. But on your turn, when only you get your BAB, now you can move the grapple pretty easily. You can retrieve a spell component, even though it costs you a round. You can probably use the opponent's weapon against him, if you're proficient with it. And you can do all this stuff even when you're alone or your party is pinned down. Monte's rule doesn't help there.

Appendix:
Note: Pinning would be too easy this way. Let them keep their BAB for that check.
Eliminate the -20 penalty for fighting while holding something grappled.
I tried out a couple other house rules before this one, but the math didn't work out:

Spoiler:

<b>don't add in your Str modifier to grapple checks -- just the size modifier</b>
The owlbear gets +10 versus +5 (wins 70%), the scorpion gets +15 versus +7 (wins 77%), and the dragon gets +46 (wins always).

<b>don't add in a size modifier, just the strength modifier</b>
hurts the owlbear, the dragon still won every time.

[El Mahdi]

I like Montes idea, but you're right, it may make things too easy. I'm going to try this out both with Montes idea alone and with your idea added in. Nice job on the work you did. I think I might see how this could work with the Pathfinder Beta version of Grapple also (it seems to be streamlined down considerably). Thanks for the link on Montes idea and for your work. Anything that can help Grapple is a plus in my book.

[Betote]

I use Pathfinder's CMB rules for grappling and other maneuvers (and I'm thinking on applying them in conjunction with "Book of Iron Might"), and boy do they accelerate those things

What I have houseruled is that, if a grappling character is dealt damage, it has to make a Fort save at DC 10 + damage suffered. If the save fails, opponent can cut loose. I winged it precisely when a band of 2nd-level PCs fought a giant crab and one of them became grabbed by its pincers.

[Jeff Wilder]

I think Combat Maneuver Bonus is a fantastic concept. It's got problems that need to be ironed out in implementation (quite a few problems, actually; see the Paizo boards for specific examples), but the idea is fantastic.

I'm always especially careful when messing with grappling rules and monsters. Many monsters will be way under-CRed if grappling for them is nerfed at all. Just for example, a T. rex that can't nearly auto-grapple is basically just a walking sack of XP.

[Noumenon]

The Combat Maneuver Bonus looks to be exactly the same as the Grapple bonus (brief Googling), so that shouldn't do anything to help with grapples. Edit: this was incorrect.

The Fort 10 + damage dealt house rule, applied to a T-Rex, means one magic missile from a level 8 wizard gives you a 50-50 chance to escape all by itself. I do think that is too easy. The "defender doesn't add their BAB to the grapple check rule" doesn't nerf the T-Rex nearly as hard. It still has auto-grapple on all of its checks on its turn, and it still wins 84% of the time against a cleric on his turn (+17 versus +8), which is 5 out of every 6 checks.

[Jeff Wilder]

Originally Posted by Noumenon

The Combat Maneuver Bonus looks to be exactly the same as the Grapple bonus (brief Googling), so that shouldn't do anything to help with grapples.

It's not, and it does.

[Noumenon]

OK, I found slightly better links by adding the search terms "medium large" to my search.

I might still be misunderstanding it, but it looks like the differences with Combat Maneuver are:

* Size modifiers are the same as for attack rolls, so Gargantuan gets +4 instead of +12.

This helps with Huge, medium-CR creatures, but not much with larger or stronger ones.

* The defender is assumed to "take 15" on his grapple check. Your combat maneuver bonus is calculated the same as your grapple check (which is why I thought it was the same), but instead of an opposed roll, you just have to beat 15 plus the other guy's bonus.

That seems like it would make escaping a lot harder! Sure you lose fewer checks on your opponent's turn, but when it comes time to escape, instead of a d20 roll you have to beat a 15 -- giving you only a 25% chance to escape a mirror image of yourself, and making it impossible to beat anything that has a +6 advantage in its combined strength, size, and BAB.

[Jeff Wilder]

Originally Posted by Noumenon

OK, I found slightly better links by adding the search terms "medium large" to my search. I might still be misunderstanding it

Is there a reason you don't just download the rules and actually read them?

[Noumenon]

I didn't know they were available. I assumed it was a proprietary product, and it doesn't come up on Google. Am I looking for the Pathfinder RPG Beta PDF? Wish I didn't have to register just to read something.

[Kerrick]

Here, I've copied the grapple rules from the Beta:

Originally Posted by Pathfinder Beta

Combat Maneuver Bonus: Each character and creature has a combat maneuver bonus (or CMB) that represents
its skill at performing and resisting combat maneuvers. A creature’s CMB is determined using the following formula:

CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier

The special size modifier for a creature’s combat maneuver bonus is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8. Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMB when performing specific maneuvers.

Performing a Combat Maneuver: When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While most combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action (in place of a melee attack), others require specif ic actions. Unless otherwise stated, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, add the damage to the DC to perform the maneuver. If your target is immobilized, unconscious, or otherwise incapacitated, your maneuver automatically succeeds. If your target is stunned, you receive a +4 bonus on your attack roll to perform a combat manuever against it.

When you perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB to the result plus any bonuses you might have due to specific feats or abilities. The DC to successfully perform the maneuver is determined using the following formula:

DC = 15 + the target’s CMB

Of particular note is the part I bolded. Since Monte is working for/advising the PF crew, it's little surprise that he posted his new grapple rule on LiveJournal; he probably came up with it for the Beta.

I was going to say that I didn't think dropping the BAB was a good idea, but then I thought about it... a high-level fighter, despite probably being a good grappler, is still only a human. He may be strong and experienced, but he still has a huge size disadvantage against, say, an ogre or a giant. Now, I use the CMB, but I dropped the DC to 10 + target's CMB, but let's try grappling without the BABs:

Let's say Bob the fighter wants to wrestle Grok the ogre in the arena. Bob's a 10th level fighter, and a hefty guy with the Improved Grapple feat; he's got 17 Str. Grok's a more or less normal specimen for his type - he has Str 21. Their CMBs would be:

Bob: +7;

Grok: +6.

(Note: If we use the PF version of Imp. Grapple, Bob's bonus would only be +5.)

If we used the version with BABs, Bob would have CMB +17 (or +15) - he'd tear that ogre apart.

On reflection, I like this rule - it makes grappling more realistic. I played judo in college; I'm not a large guy (5'9"), but in practice, our coach made us work against everyone, regardless of size, so that we could get a broader range of experience. We had a guy on the team who was 6'6" and 290 pounds; let me just say that was nearly impossible for me to pin him because of the size/strength difference, no matter that I was a lot more experienced.

[Noumenon]

I was wondering if there were any cases I hadn't thought of, besides Huge vs Medium and fighter vs wizard. High level PC versus low level giant is one. Thanks. I also haven't done any math with Improved Grapple.

I'm gonna look at this in 3.5 just because I'm not as familiar with CMB yet, especially your modified "take 10" version. Remember, my rule is that only the defender doesn't get his BAB. So when the Lv 10 fighter starts the grapple, he'll have +13 vs +9 (67% win), or 81% win if he has Improved Grapple. Now on the ogre's turn, he has +12 vs +3 (84% win) or 70% win if the fighter has improved grapple. I hadn't anticipated how much of a swing that is, because I hadn't thought of a matchhup where one high grapple is all BAB and the other is all size and strength.

Still, I think swinginess is a feature as much as a bug. You'll really get an eye-gouging, groin-punching wrestling match out of these two fighting, now. Before, when the fighter had improved grapple, he won 67% of the checks and there was no reason for the ogre to do anything but try to escape. Now he might decide to stay and trade blows.

[Noumenon]

Tell me about the PF version of Improved Grapple. Does it give a bonus, or just negate the attack of opportunity? Because that's like a +9 bonus to your grapple check right there. I'm surprised anyone manages to start a grapple when the opponent gets to take 15 and add AoO damage to his check result.

[Noumenon]

I just thought of an important theoretical justification for this house rule. Why should you get to add your BAB to your grapple check on defense? You don't get to add your BAB to your AC when it's not your turn. Why should your BAB help you defend against other people's grapples?

Of course, you can add a lot of other bonuses to your AC for defense. This opens up the idea of grapple defense bonuses or feats, like the one that Grease gives you. Too bad we can't just use Escape Artist for grapple defense, but that increases even faster than BAB.

[Kerrick]

Originally Posted by Noumenon

I was wondering if there were any cases I hadn't thought of, besides Huge vs Medium and fighter vs wizard. High level PC versus low level giant is one. Thanks. I also haven't done any math with Improved Grapple.

I would try pairing up two things with a huge size difference, too - say, dragon (Huge or larger) and housecat (Tiny) or fairy (Diminutive) and see how the modifiers balance out.

I'm gonna look at this in 3.5 just because I'm not as familiar with CMB yet, especially your modified "take 10" version.

It's not really a "take 10" version; 10 is the base for every other DC in the system, so it made sense to move the grapple check to 10 too (that, and people complained that it was too high at 15).

Still, I think swinginess is a feature as much as a bug. You'll really get an eye-gouging, groin-punching wrestling match out of these two fighting, now. Before, when the fighter had improved grapple, he won 67% of the checks and there was no reason for the ogre to do anything but try to escape. Now he might decide to stay and trade blows.

The problem with this is you have to remember two numbers - attack and defense. Simpler is better; in this case, having one number for both checks.

If we take Bob and Grok and use the 3.5 rules (inc. the IG feat), Bob's bonus would be +17 for attack and +7 for defense; Grok's would be +12 for attack and +9 for defense. Which means, basically, that Bob will generally win if he initiates the grapple, but Grok has a slightly better chance of breaking free.

Originally Posted by Noumenon

Tell me about the PF version of Improved Grapple. Does it give a bonus, or just negate the attack of opportunity? Because that's like a +9 bonus to your grapple check right there. I'm surprised anyone manages to start a grapple when the opponent gets to take 15 and add AoO damage to his check result.

Here's the Imp. Grapple feat, PF style:

You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a grapple combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. In addition, increase the DC of performing a grapple combat maneuver against you by +2.

Effectively, you gain a +2 bonus to CMB and don't provoke AoOs when initiating a grapple.

Originally Posted by Noumenon

I just thought of an important theoretical justification for this house rule. Why should you get to add your BAB to your grapple check on defense? You don't get to add your BAB to your AC when it's not your turn. Why should your BAB help you defend against other people's grapples?

Because as any wrestler will tell you, you wouldn't be a very good grappler if you couldn't get out of other people's holds as well as put them on. BAB represents training, and all grapplers are trained to escape and reverse holds/pins too. Using BAB for defense makes eminent sense both for this reason and the one I stated above. You could start using a different system for defense, but it would have a very good chance of overcomplicating grappling even further.

Of course, you can add a lot of other bonuses to your AC for defense. This opens up the idea of grapple defense bonuses or feats, like the one that Grease gives you. Too bad we can't just use Escape Artist for grapple defense, but that increases even faster than BAB.

You could just grant a +1 bonus per 5 ranks. This makes sense and isn't game-breaking.

[Noumenon]

I would try pairing up two things with a huge size difference, too - say, dragon (Huge or larger) and housecat (Tiny) or fairy (Diminutive) and see how the modifiers balance out.

How about a 12th level rogue housecat versus a CR 12 purple worm? It's -3 versus +40, so infinitely impossible. Taking away the defender's BAB, it's still impossible -- +40 vs -12 on the worm's turn, -3 versus +24 on the cat's turn.

Monte Cook's system isn't too generous here either -- a fighter would have to power attack at -14 to give the cat a 50-50 shot at escape.

The problem with this is you have to remember two numbers - attack and defense. Simpler is better; in this case, having one number for both checks.

The nice thing is that every monster lists "Base Attack/Grapple: +16/+40." Subtract the first number from the second, and you have your defense. That meets my standard for simplicity. It makes me want to not do anything complicated with the Escape Artist skill.

As an aside, I just realized that Escape Artist basically reads "You escape from grapples as a fighter with 16 Strength. Add your Dex bonus to this check." So basically, before my house rule no class could ever escape a grapple at high levels without Freedom of Movement. Now, the melee classes have a good shot, monks and rogues can do it if they max out Escape Artist, and casters are still helpless 90% of the time. So that will make the classes a little more balanced at high levels.

[Kerrick]

Originally Posted by Noumenon

How about a 12th level rogue housecat versus a CR 12 purple worm? It's -3 versus +40, so infinitely impossible. Taking away the defender's BAB, it's still impossible -- +40 vs -12 on the worm's turn, -3 versus +24 on the cat's turn.

That's as it should be, I think... but also points to the size modifiers being too large.

I thought of something else - there should be a way to factor the opponent's size relative to yours into the equation as a penalty to your roll when you're attacking or a bonus when defending. Say, anything one size larger/smaller is -1, because they're fairly close and easy to handle; two sizes larger/smaller is -2, then -4, -8, etc. This more closely simulates the difficulty of a purple worm attempting to swallow a cat - the size difference is 5 steps, so +/-16, which drops the worm's bonus to +24 and boosts the cat's to +4.

Now, if we reduce the size modifiers... there are two lines of thought on this one: I think going with the size mod used for AC (or maybe double the size mod) is simpler, but TS thinks a flat +2/size is better. We'll try both.

My method:

Cat: -7 (-2 size, -5 Str); purple worm: +16 (+4 size, +12 Str).

His method:

Cat: -9 (-4 size, -5 Str); purple worm: +18 (+6 size, +12 Str).

If we factor in the size difference, it changes the mods to +9 and +0 for mine, or +7 and +2 for his. Either way, it'll be pretty hard for the worm to swallow that cat - which is as it should be, IMO.

The nice thing is that every monster lists "Base Attack/Grapple: +16/+40." Subtract the first number from the second, and you have your defense. That meets my standard for simplicity. It makes me want to not do anything complicated with the Escape Artist skill.

Good point.

As an aside, I just realized that Escape Artist basically reads "You escape from grapples as a fighter with 16 Strength. Add your Dex bonus to this check."

Where are you getting "as a fighter with 16 Strength"?

So basically, before my house rule no class could ever escape a grapple at high levels without Freedom of Movement.

That's a large part of why everyone was saying that the grapple system is broken.

Now, the melee classes have a good shot, monks and rogues can do it if they max out Escape Artist, and casters are still helpless 90% of the time. So that will make the classes a little more balanced at high levels.

I think you should be able to use Strength or Dex, whichever is higher, to escape a grapple. Both are handy for getting free; they just different methods. Strength presupposes that you just muscle your way free, while Dex assumes that you wriggle out of the hold.

[Noumenon]

I don't really want to give a housecat the chance to escape from a purple worm. I think that's one of those tradeoffs you make for choosing to play a Tiny rogue kitty.

Where are you getting "as a fighter with 16 Strength"?

A fighter with 16 strength has a grapple check of BAB + 3, which is his level + 3. Escape Artist maxed out is your level + 3, plus your Dex bonus.

[Kerrick]

Originally Posted by Noumenon

I don't really want to give a housecat the chance to escape from a purple worm. I think that's one of those tradeoffs you make for choosing to play a Tiny rogue kitty.

Leaving aside for the moment that you can't possibly have a cat with PC levels, you do have a point. Those numbers seemed a little too much in favor of the cat for my taste, but I was just throwing that out - I haven't really made any in-depth analyses yet due to lack of time.

A fighter with 16 strength has a grapple check of BAB + 3, which is his level + 3. Escape Artist maxed out is your level + 3, plus your Dex bonus.

Ah, I see.

Have you thought about the other combat manuevers, too? Everyone gets all stuck on grapple, but they never consider bull rush, trip, overrun, and disarm.

[Noumenon]

Leaving aside for the moment that you can't possibly have a cat with PC levels

Because of the intelligence score, right? I didn't really know that. What if you give your cat a headband of intellect?

There aren't any monsters that have "on a successful hit, this monster establishes a hold and can disarm/overrun/trip," so it really doesn't come up.

[Kerrick]

Originally Posted by Noumenon

Because of the intelligence score, right? I didn't really know that. What if you give your cat a headband of intellect?

I'm not touching that one.

There aren't any monsters that have "on a successful hit, this monster establishes a hold and can disarm/overrun/trip," so it really doesn't come up.

I was thinking about humanoids (especially PCs and NPCs), not monsters. The only other combat maneuver monsters can do like grappling is Trip.