Hemispherical Wall of Ice

[Volaran]

Hey there folks. Just wondering if I could poke the collective brains of ENWorld.

Could anyone point me to references or suggestions about the Wall of Ice? Both PCs and NPCs in the campaign that I play in have made occasional use of the Wall of Ice hemisphere to trap or at least slow down other characters or monsters. We assume the hemisphere of ice for this purpose is hollow.

By the description, creatures adjacent to the wall when it is formed get reflex save in order to disrupt it from being formed. We've taken this to mean creatures adjacent to the edge of the wall. The party is 14th level right now, so our party wizard's hemisphere wall of ice is 17 feet high and 36 feet across. Given these dimensions, and that it is a solid structure, we have not given a save to creatures in the center of the hemisphere (as long as their dimensions would not be large enough to reach the edge anyway).

Today though, my DM had been mentioning reading the D&D FAQ and possibly changing this based of the following Q&A.

"If you try to enclose someone with a hemispherical wall of
force, do they get any sort of save to avoid being trapped?
By the book, the answer is clearly no. However, the wall of
ice spell description specifically mentions that targets get a
save from this use of the spell. That leads one to think that
there should have been a mention, one way or the other, for
wall of force. Was the omission intentional? In any case,
what is the result of a successful save?

A hemispherical wall of ice does allow a save to avoid being
trapped underneath—that’s why the spell’s save entry says “see
text.” A successful save allows creatures under the hemisphere
to immediately move out from underneath by the shortest safe
route, just as with a blade barrier spell.
There is no save against a hemispherical wall of force, and
that’s why the spell’s saving throw entry reads “none.”"

The current version of Wall of Force does not have a hemisphere version, so this seemed odd. I checked it out, and it looks like he downloaded the 3.0 FAQ instead of the 3.5 one. 3.0 did have a specific save listing for the hemispherical Wall of Ice allowing characters to escape rather than disrupt. In addition, I could see the FAQ answer suggesting that the hemisphere is solid rather than hollow. The shortest safe route out of the hemisphere, etc. sounds a bit confusing.

Now at this level, anything we're using the hemisphere Wall of Ice on isn't going to be delayed more than a round or two anyway, but I was just curious as to what people consider "adjacent" to be for the purpose of this particular save.

Any other thoughts on the Wall of Ice spell would be welcome too, as it has been a favourite of mine since 1st ed.

 

[nick012000]

Perhaps the save is for those trapped under the ice, not inside it? Unlike a Wall of Force, a Wall of Ice creates a physical object of non-negligible thickness.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I think taking away the save makes the spell far more powerful than it was intended to be. I look at it as granting a save to avoid being taken out of the battle for 1 or more rounds.

It's always been an issue how someone gets out when they're right in the middle of something, but this is a very slippery slope as there are many other spells in a similar situation.

I say keep the save and forget about the physics.

 

[shilsen]

I'll disagree with Ogrork the Mighty. I treat it exactly the way you do, Volaran. As written, I think you can catch a creature without a save as long as you center the hemisphere appropriately. And no, I don't think that's too powerful for a 4th level spell.

 

[Volaran]

Thank you for the replies so far. I thought that to clear up confusion, since it is a 3.0 FAQ being applied to a 3.5 situation issue,that I would post the Wall of Ice save information from the 3.0 and 3.5 SRDs.

3.0:
"Saving Throw: See text
Hemisphere: The wall takes the form of a hemisphere whose maximum radius is 3 feet +1 foot per caster level. It is as hard to break through as the ice plane form, but it does not deal damage to those who go through a breach.
The character can create the hemisphere so that it traps one or more creatures, though these creatures can avoid being trapped by the hemisphere by making successful Reflex saves."

Here the text is pretty clear. Make the save, you're outside the hemisphere, although the Wall of Ice is still there. In some cases, this would mean some crazy movement that Ogrork the Mighty mentioned, but I don't necessarily mind that. Aside from being the occasional part of D&D, it would affect PC and adversary alike. It doesn't play favourites.

In this case, only the hemisphere version notes a save.

3.5
"Saving Throw: Reflex negates; see text
This spell creates an anchored plane of ice or a hemisphere of ice, depending on the version selected. A wall of ice cannot form in an area occupied by physical objects or creatures. Its surface must be smooth and unbroken when created. Any creature adjacent to the wall when it is created may attempt a Reflex save to disrupt the wall as it is being formed. A successful save indicates that the spell automatically fails."

Right off the bat, there are two main differences. Both versions of the spell now allow a save, and rather than a creature escaping from underneath (and the movement involved), they simply disrupt the wall and the spell fails.

Although it is personal interpretation at this point, it seems to me that the reflex save here would indicate something like sticking an arm into the spell area as it forms, since you're not moving out of the way.

As noted before, we do play in a 3.5 campaign.

I don't personally think the spell is overpowered, and there is a certain amount of trade off between the two versions. For instance, in 3.5 if you're involved in melee with a adversary, and they take a five foot step back and create a wall of ice between you to escape, you get a save to disrupt the spell as it forms. That wouldn't have happened in 3.0.

To respond to nick012000, there doesn't seem to be an actual ruling in either version as to what happens if you're in an actual square where ice is forming. Even with a failed save, were I DMing, I'd probably just have a character randomly end up on one side or the other, but that's just me.

To address the movement question, strictly speaking of the 3.5 version, if you were to allow someone starting at the center of the hemisphere as it was moving to clear enough distance to try and disrupt the wall, it would suggest that allowing someone the same length of movement to try and disrupt the anchored plane version of the wall. As Ogrok said, it is a slippery slope, and I'd rather just ignore it all together.

 

[Snapdragyn]

To respond to nick012000, there doesn't seem to be an actual ruling in either version as to what happens if you're in an actual square where ice is forming.

A ruling isn't needed, because it is in the spell text (3.5 version):

A wall of ice cannot form in an area occupied by physical objects or creatures.

Now whether that means an autofail on the spell, or the wall zigs around the blocked square is up to the DM.

 

[frankthedm]

Now whether that means an autofail on the spell, or the wall zigs around the blocked square is up to the DM.

Not really

A wall of ice cannot form in an area occupied by physical objects or creatures. Its surface must be smooth and unbroken when created. Any creature adjacent to the wall when it is created may attempt a Reflex save to disrupt the wall as it is being formed. A successful save indicates that the spell automatically fails.

The hemisphere is nearly useless to entrap somone. Unless you are playing without a grid, the victim WILL have an adjacent square that contains the wall. allowing for reflex save.

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/6531/iceyiq9.gif

 

[Eldragon]

The radius of a Hemisphere of Ice is 3 feet + 1 foot per caster level So it might be a little tricky for a 7th level caster to get everyone to fit, but it gets easier at higher levels.

I would say that the upper right and lower left diagrams provided by FrankTheDM are incorrect. The creatures depicted are not adjacent to the wall. Adjacent to the wall IMHO means that one of the sides of the square occupied by the creature is shared by the wall.

Furthermore, the upper left diagram does not follow the spirit of a 10' hemisphere, Instead it takes advantage of the fuzzy geometry of applying a circle to a square grid system. I don't let my players get away with that stuff, and they certainly don't let me get away with it either. But if thats how you run your games, more power to you.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

I think the original poster has it right. Targets that are not adjacent to the edges of a hemisphere do not get to make a saving throw to evade it. The text of the rules supports this.

Additional considerations:
- Keeping in mind frankthedm's chart, there are not many instances where a target would not get a saving throw.
- Even if the hemisphere is unusually large, capturing multiple opponents is a bad idea because it only takes one save to cause the hemisphere to fail.
- Even if an opponent gets trapped, the wall only has 3 hp per level of the caster. A CR appropriate opponent can typically handle that kind of output and get out pretty quickly. Spell casters can just blast it with a damage spell, or Dispel it, or use Dimension Door or similar spell to bypass it. Fighter type can just beat on it until it fails. Rogues may be a bit screwed.
- As a point of comparison, Resilient Sphere is the same level as Wall of ice. It always grants a save, but an opponent that is trapped is screwed unless it can negate it. Your options for escape are Teleport, Dimension Door, Targeted Dispel Magic, Rod of Cancelation, Rod of Negation, and Disintegrate. Non casters are totally screwed, and they are screwed for 1 minute per caster level. A No save spell that can be escaped relatively easily should not be an issue.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[MarkB]

I would say that the upper right and lower left diagrams provided by FrankTheDM are incorrect. The creatures depicted are not adjacent to the wall. Adjacent to the wall IMHO means that one of the sides of the square occupied by the creature is shared by the wall.

'Adjacent' is pretty well defined in 3.5e D&D - it means "in a 5-foot square next to the 5-foot square the object is occupying". So long as the wall is passing through an adjacent 5-foot square, it is within a small or medium creature's reach, and considered adjacent to them.

One obvious question would be, could the presence of even a small thrown object disrupt the wall? By the text as written it could, and it wouldn't be significantly more effort for a creature to throw a held object into the forming wall than to stick an arm into it.

Another problematic feature of the 3.5 version of the spell is that the saving throw resolution mechanism assumes knowledge on the part of the subject. How many non-spellcasters are going to think it's a good idea to stick their hand or weapon into a materialising spell effect?