Monk + Roge/Scout?|| FoB with Sneak Attack?

[vlysses]

Hi all, given you very helpful comments previously, I was wondering if anyone had any experience playing a Monk/Rogue of Monk/Scout combination (emphasis on unarmed strike and martial arts feats/skills such as flying kick and tripping).

Which one is more practical?

And very importantly, rules wise: is it possible to combine FoB with Sneak Attack? I'm thinking here to take just one level of Rogue, get the sneak attack ability, and then do 1D6 of extra damage at every successful FoB Sneak Attack... or is this against the spirit of the Sneak Attack, where you have to be precise, rather than just randomly hit as many foes as possible (which is a bit the spirit of FoB ;-)

Many thanks,V

[Nebten]

Oh yes you can unload a furry of blows with sneak attack as long as the pre-reqs for sneak attack are met. You typically are not able to do so with scout since you have to move and then attack to get the extra damage benifit and FoB is a full round action.

Just make sure you take your rogue level first and that he's lawful =v).

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's still possible to get FoB and skirmish, just more difficult. A bunch of items in the Magic Item Cmpendium will let you, a few times per day, accomplish this. Boots of Sidestepping: swift action 3/day, take an extra 5 ft step. So you can do a 10 ft step around the enemy and proceed to full attack. I think Skirmisher Boots also let you full attack skirmish, I forget exactly what they do, though.

The level 5 stance, Press the Advantage (White Raven discipline), from Tome of Battle basically lets you 10 ft step anytime you choose ot 5 ft step (or to 5 ft step in difficult terrain, where you normally can't). Without Warblade or Crusdaer multiclassing, though, you could not take that as a feat until level 18. It basically guarantees that if you start within 10 ft of the enemy you can always full attack, though.

If the DM considers being teleported to count for activating skirmish, that opens up new avenues as well.

There are also two ways to do unarmed strikes from range, which would mean you don't even need to be close to the enemy when you take whatever 10 ft step combo you end up with.
One is the Ring the Golden Bell feat, from dragon mag #319*. It can only be used 1 +wis mod times per day, has very short range, and is the weaker option, IMO.
*It can also be found on page 41, here: http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules...ndex-Feats.pdf
The other option, if you have an allied spellcaster, is Blood Wind, a level 1 sorc/wiz/cleric (strangely not Druid) spell from Spel Compendium. Casting it is a swift action, and for 1 round, the target can make natural attacks at range, with a range increment of 20 ft. Cover can add to the AC of any who are attacked, as normal for a ranged attack. Recall, monk gets to count his unarmed strike as a natural weapon....

[Herzog]

you will be able to do SA damage with FoB when you are flanking or when the target is flat-footed.

However, when the target is flat-footed because you are hidden or invisible, only the first attack will do SA damage (because for all subsequent attacks you are no longer considered hidden)

If you want to combine rogue and monk, the Ascetic Rogue feat from Complete Adventurer allows you to freely switch between the two classes (normally not allowed for monk), increases the stunning blow DC when combining sneak attack with unarmed strike, and allows you to stack your rogue levels with your monk levels to determine unarmed strike damage.

Obviously, that last part is most beneficial when combining a few monk levels with a lot of rogue levels.

I think there is also a similar feat to benefit from the monk/scout combination, but I'm not sure where to find it. regardless, previous comments about the difficulty of combining 10' move with FoB stands.

The third option would be to combine Monk with Ninja. Especially with the Ascetic Stalker feat from Complete Scoundrel. However, the ninja's sudden strike ability does not work when simply flanking, so a lot of FoB sneak attack situations would be lost.

[vlysses]

Thanks guys, this is helpful... looks like the Rogue makes a whole lot more sense than the Scout... We have a quick barbarian in our group (who has Sping Attack), so I am hoping on his co-operation to achieve many many flanking opportunities... ;-)

[StreamOfTheSky]

Actually, the main point of Spring Attack is to get in and get out of melee, so the foe can never bring the pain of a full attack on you. So I doubt the barbarian will be terribly helpful for you. Summon Monster spells, or as my group calls them, summon flanking buddy, may be your best bet, if the party wizard or cleric is willing to cast it.

[vlysses]

StreamOfTheSky, yes you're right, SA is actually not so much the point here as the mobility on the battlefield generally, where we will be able to move around, avoiding AoOs (he with Mobiliy I with Tumble) and flanking opponents as often as poss...

[Dannyalcatraz]

Another option...

Check my sig for the Monk Database.

In there, you'll find:

1) The Ascetic Rogue feat's location

2) The Oriental Adventures Monk has no MC restrictions. Certain other setting-based base class variants have different MC restrictions from the PHB version.

3) The Shou Disciple PrCl (OA) has only 5 levels, and at the end of it, your PC can FoB with ANY weapon, can wear armor while doing so...and doesn't require Monk levels as a prereq- all you need is the right combo of Feats, skills, and BAB (or whatever).

For example, you could design this guy as a Ftr/Rogue, get the BAB & Feat boost, then cruise through the PrCl, FoBing & SAing with your 2Hd sword, Maul or Greatspear. Or you could be a BttlSorc/Rogue and augment your abilities with spells, Dimension Dooring behind your foes, then tearing them up. And so forth.

[Lazlo]

I made that exact Monk/Rogue combo for a Forgotten Realms 'Batman' character. He only took 1 lvl of Monk (when he was mourning his father's death) and Rogue the rest of the way with Ascetic Rogue. He can do massive amounts of unarmed damage especially when coming in from the shadows, and since I want him really in the spirit of Batman, uses non-lethal damage against enemies as often as he can.

[Darklone]

If you do the monky rogue stunt, don´t forget ability focus from the MM for optimised stunning fist DCs.

[Dannyalcatraz]

If you have access to DCv1, you might also investigate the Feat, Ring the Golden Bell.

It lets you use your unarmed strikes- including anything they're "charged" with- at range a certain limited # per day.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I mentioned that a while ago...
Still think an ally to cast Blood Wind is the better option if you want to do that sort of thing.

[Dannyalcatraz]

its just a question of how you want to do things.

Blood Wind takes time and a willing ally who has the spell prepared. Depending on the adventure, that spell might be 1) rare and 2) a low priority in comparison to more useful (for the time being) spells. In addition, you may want him to cast the spell, and he may be 1) fresh out or 2) busy doing something else, like lobbing fireballs or dying.

OTOH, Ring the Golden Bell requires the PC give up a scarce feat...and has Weapon Focus: IUC as a prereq, so it sort of requires 2 feats to gain. In addition, since it is based off of your stunning attacks, you get the most benefit out of it when you take Extra Stunning- all in all not an inconsequential set of feats to choose. But on the plus side, you're self-sufficient, and you don't have a time limit- as long as you have stunning attempts remaining, you can use RtGB.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It has a very poor range and usages per day, and I do think feats are rather precious.

Blood Wind is only a level 1 spell and only takes a swift action to cast. It's not like you're asking for too much. I guess if you want to melee attack from afar often, you'd need both. But by the time you have a fearsome full attack, a few level 1 spells isn't a big cost to a mage, especially if it's a sorc. Later on, maybe even buy the wizard/sorc a ring of wizardry I on the condition he uses all the extra slots for Blood Wind.

(Greater) Mage Armor, Enlarge Person, (Greater) Magic Weapon, Girallon's Blessing, (Greater) Mighty Whallop (if allowed)...the monk is already pretty well established as the best class in the game for mooching buff spells from the party arcanist.

[Arkhandus]

You can full-attack invisibly as a Ninja (Complete Adventurer or Dragon Magazine #318, April 2004) with Ghost Step, since it renders you invisible for a full round (it does not duplicate the Invisibility spell so it does not have that spell's restriction; also, Greater Invisibility does not turn you visible after an attack, so an ally casting GI on you can thus allow you to sneak attack with every attack during a flurry of blows).

One wierd build that might be viable is to start as a rogue, go rogue 3, ninja 2, then swordsage 2, followed by monk levels (Before that, rely on weapons as normal, and light armor until you become a ninja). Works best as a human, otherwise you'll take multiclassing penalties most likely.

Rogue 3 and Ninja 2 will give you 2d6 sneak attack and 1d6 sudden strike, plus Wis mod + 1/2 monk level Ki Power uses per day (so Wis mod + 1 Ki Powers/day) along with Ghost Step for invisibility by expending Ki Power uses. Swordsage will give you a few useful stances and maneuvers; when your character level is 4 or higher and you take a level of Swordsage, you'll have an effective initiator level of 3 (your swordsage level + half your other levels) and qualify for the 2nd-level maneuver Cloak of Deception, which is invisibility until the end of your turn when used, and you can use it once per battle at least. So that will allow some more full-attack sneak attack sudden strikes (plus flurry of blows during that when you become a monk later).

Also, the swordsage's Discipline Focus, if applied to Shadow Hand as it should be at 1st-level, will give you Weapon Focus in all Shadow Hand associated weapons, which includes Unarmed Strike. So it can help you qualify for Ring the Golden Bell if you want to take that feat later. Swordsage maneuvers you might also want to take include Shadow Jaunt, Emerald Razor, Fire Riposte, Burning Brand, Burning Blade, and Moment of Perfect Mind (since you'll need at least one Diamond Mind maneuver to qualify for Emerald Razor). Most of these are 2nd-level maneuvers so you can only get them all if you're 4th-level before taking your 1st level in Swordsage. Stance-wise you may want Island of Blades (makes it easier to flank enemies) and either Flame's Blessing, Step of the Wind, or Stance of Clarity.

At 6th-level you could take the Shadow Blade feat, making use of your Shadow Hand stances to deal extra damage equal to your Dexterity bonus with Shadow Hand weapons. At 9th-level or later you could take the Martial Stance feat for an extra stance known, that being Assassin's Stance, which is 3rd-level and requires having some Shadow Hand maneuvers beforehand (you won't qualify for 3rd-level stances or maneuvers until your 8th character level due to the multiclassing). At later levels, you might consider taking Martial Study or Martial Stance for more useful stuff. You might possibly find the Gloom Razor feat useful, but I dunno with this build. And definitely take the Superior Unarmed Strike feat from ToB once you qualify for it, to boost your unarmed damage as though you were a monk 4 levels higher than your actual monk level (probably as your 12th-level feat, since Martial Stance - Assassin's Stance is a better choice at 9th-level, given that it will boost your Sneak Attack by +2d6 when in that stance).

Swordsage and the aforementioned feats, maneuvers, and stances are from Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords. You might also consider the Vexing Flanker feat from Player's Handbook II, if you take Combat Reflexes early on to meet its prerequisite, since your attack bonus won't be as great as a pure rogue or pure monk. Catching opponents with flanking or invisibility msot of the time, however, will at least give you a fair chance of hitting.

[Arkhandus]

Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky

It has a very poor range and usages per day, and I do think feats are rather precious.

Blood Wind is only a level 1 spell and only takes a swift action to cast. It's not like you're asking for too much. I guess if you want to melee attack from afar often, you'd need both. But by the time you have a fearsome full attack, a few level 1 spells isn't a big cost to a mage, especially if it's a sorc. Later on, maybe even buy the wizard/sorc a ring of wizardry I on the condition he uses all the extra slots for Blood Wind.

(Greater) Mage Armor, Enlarge Person, (Greater) Magic Weapon, Girallon's Blessing, (Greater) Mighty Whallop (if allowed)...the monk is already pretty well established as the best class in the game for mooching buff spells from the party arcanist.

The problem is time, though. It takes valuable actions for a mage to buff the monk, rounds in which he could be burninating or confuzzling or bewitching or otherwise boondoggling enemies. ^_^ And if he has to waste 5th-level + slots on Quickened 1st-level buffs for the monk, it's still a drain on his valuable mid or high level slots (depending on his level, 5th-level slots may be among his highest).

I agree about the mooching, though.

A ninja or swordsage can go invisible by himself as a swift action with Ghost Step or Cloak of Deception. And the build I offered, however wierd and slow to pay off fully (and potentially not quite worth it at upper levels for all I know, since I haven't tried it in play yet), allows for frequent self-invisibility for a few or several d6s worth of bonus damage per attack in a flurry of blows.

[StreamOfTheSky]

What time lost? Blood Wind is already a swift action. Mage Armor, Greater Magic Weapon and Greater Mighty Whallop (once available over the level 1 versions) all lasts for HOURS. Girallon's Blessing is 10 min/level, and after a while is basically "up for the whole dungeon" in many cases. So of all the spells I named, the only ones that really do waste time and actions in combat are enlarge Person, and the regular Magic Weapon and Mighty Whallop, which really aren't as useful to begin with, and level 1 and thus cheap in potion/oil form.

The monk in general benefits from a lot of spells that don't even cost the casters any spotlight time in combat to buff him with.

Oh, and if you're going to bother Quickening Enlage Person to 5th level to cast in combat as a swift...why not just learn the greater version from spell compendium, cast it out of combat, and have it last all day long? That's also level 5, isn't it?

[Dannyalcatraz]

Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky

What time lost? Blood Wind is already a swift action.

Its still uses up a 1/round resource- a swift action- that could be used doing something else...

Its a small bit of time, but it IS a bit of time.

[Deset Gled]

A couple of general thoughts...

A single level of rogue can be beneficial to any melee focused build. An extra d6 of sneak attack bonus damage is a very elegant way to boost damage. It works best when there are multiple melee based characters in your party, as flanking is by far the easiest and most foolproof way to sneak attack. Don't rely on stealth tactics unless you're specifically built to be a stealthy character.

The biggest downside to dipping into the rogue class is the loss of BAB. This is especially critical to monks, as they already have low BAB, and MAD that can hurt their to-hit bonus. Dipping into casting classes will only make things worse.

For a monk, the biggest danger to focusing on a FoB based build is your d6 hit die. Low HP makes standing in the middle of melee a bit of a gamble. A high AC and good Con are essential.

Combining these facts, I think the concept you have presented works best with a Dex based monk build, with Con and Wis being secondary stats (Str at an even 10). A dex-based build typically has a high AC but low damage ouput, which is exactly the scenario that benefits most from a single level dip into rogue.

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm a big fan of the Dex based monk, myself.

If you go that route:

1) Deft Opportunist- from the Combat Reflexes tree- adds +4 to AoO attempts.

2) Find a good Reach tripping weapon, and you'll get to use all of those bonus AoOs.

3) With certain feats/weapon combos, you can use those weapons as Monk weapons, gaining the ability to FoB with Reach. See also the Shou Disciple mentioned above for another way to get FoB with a Reach weapon.