Optimize a Party of Werebears!

[EroGaki]

After having suffered a TPK in the RHoD adventure, we have decided to do something rather absurd: play as a party of werebears (our DM will be making a story hour out of this ). We are using the Pathfinder Beta (and will convert to the final product when it becomes available). Here are the rules:

1. 25 point buy. We are using the pathfinder point buy, not the standard PH.
2. We have to be a core race (elf, human, etc).
3. Core classes only!
4. We are starting out as 7th level werebears: We have all 6 of the racial hit dice for brown bears, plus one level of our choice. Our ECL is 10th, taking into account the +3 LE (we are all natural lycanthropes). Our starting money is that of a 7th level character.

Now, this is a considerable challenege; our DM agreed to this for two reasons: he wants to see how well we do in the RHoD as werebears, and he finds the idea of a band of werebear adventures amusing. While we will have a pretty good tank factor going on, I can see that we will suffer a fair share of challeneges as well. We only have one level in an actual character class, so we will be lacking on the magic side of things. Thus far, it looks like we will have: a monk, a rogue, and a ranger, and I will be playing a bard.

I ask the good people of EN World for help! There a problems that need to be overcome if we are to have any chance of survival:

1. Healing (or lack thereof). Besides finding a method of healing ourselves, we also need a way of dealing with the numerous status effects, such as poison, curses, etc.

2. Gear size. Unfortuantely, our gear will not change size with us, so weapons and armor, as well as most clothing items will be a challenge to manage.

3. Magic. Seeing as we are effectively 1st level characters class-wise, we have a serious lack of magical problem solving; dispelling magic, wards, and other utility spells will not be available.


I'm looking for tips, advice, builds, etc. Any help would be much appreciated. We all really want this to work! Thanks!

[Starbuck_II]

Originally Posted by EroGaki

1. 25 point buy. We are using the pathfinder point buy, not the standard PH.
2. We have to be a core race (elf, human, etc).
3. Core classes only!
4. We are starting out as 7th level werebears: We have all 6 of the racial hit dice for brown bears, plus one level of our choice. Our ECL is 10th, taking into account the +3 LE (we are all natural lycanthropes). Our starting money is that of a 7th level character.

Why ias your ECL 10, but your money only 7?

You are supposed to get money as your ECL not your HD. Yes LA counts for money.
But anyhoo:

I ask the good people of EN World for help! There a problems that need to be overcome if we are to have any chance of survival:

1. Healing (or lack thereof). Besides finding a method of healing ourselves, we also need a way of dealing with the numerous status effects, such as poison, curses, etc.

Wands of CLW for healing.
Scrolls of lesser restoration (remove curse, etc)
Scroll of removing poison (slow poison, etc)

[Dannyalcatraz]

Be different- instead of brown bear, choose polar or maybe even panda.

If Polar, play up the race angle. "You're only doing this 'cause I'm white." Also, play a Bar-Bear-ian- many comedians have postulated about the toughness of a white guy hanging out with a bunch of black guys.

If Panda, be a monk.

2. Gear size. Unfortuantely, our gear will not change size with us, so weapons and armor, as well as most clothing items will be a challenge to manage.

As for gear size, take Monkey Grip and use oversized weapons. That way, when you increase size, you'll have no penalty using the weapons at all.

A monk- the Panda above- will have no issue with this at all.

[Theroc]

This is sortof offtopic, but I'm curious about how it works out.

Werebears are ALWAYS Lawful Good.

Does that mean their alignment cannot be changed by non-(lawful good) actions? Or does that mean this party will be incapable of performing Illegal or non-good acts?

[insanogeddon]

Ketilogs (??) ointment is a must have.

vows of poverty for the front liners.

[Starbuck_II]

Originally Posted by Theroc

This is sortof offtopic, but I'm curious about how it works out.

Werebears are ALWAYS Lawful Good.

Does that mean their alignment cannot be changed by non-(lawful good) actions? Or does that mean this party will be incapable of performing Illegal or non-good acts?

Natural Lycans aren't restricted like afflicted ones.

In addition Always means 5% are different. This Party could the 5%.

[Theroc]

Originally Posted by Starbuck_II

Natural Lycans aren't restricted like afflicted ones.

In addition Always means 5% are different. This Party could the 5%.

Ah, thanks for that. Helps me a lot, especially if that's a completely RAW ruling.

Anyways sorry for the partial hijack, seemed relevant.

I'd recommend any frontline fighters take the monster feats related to natural weapon 'size' and natural AC, unless you're focusing on actual weapons, then just worry over natural AC, obviously.

[EroGaki]

Originally Posted by Dannyalcatraz

Be different- instead of brown bear, choose polar or maybe even panda.

If Polar, play up the race angle. "You're only doing this 'cause I'm white." Also, play a Bar-Bear-ian- many comedians have postulated about the toughness of a white guy hanging out with a bunch of black guys.

If Panda, be a monk.



As for gear size, take Monkey Grip and use oversized weapons. That way, when you increase size, you'll have no penalty using the weapons at all.

A monk- the Panda above- will have no issue with this at all.

I forgot about monkey grip! Thanks for the tip! That will solve our weapon problem, at least.


Alrighty, so we have decided to model our characters after famous bears (for humor value):

1. Our ranger will be modeled after Smokey the Bear. He plans to use a large sized spade as his main weapon.
2. The rogue is modeled after Yogi the Bear. Skilled at the arts of misdirection and picknic basket snatching.
3. The monk is modeled after Winnie the Pooh. He figures that Winnie is a monk because of his knowledge of the Tao and eastern philosophy (if you haven't read The Tao of Pooh by Benjamin Hoff, I highly recommend you give a look).
4. My character, the bard, is modeled after Baloo from the Jungle Book. Baloo is a party animal, who is an excellent singer and dancer. Also, in the original story, he thought the jungle cubs the Law of the Jungle, so I figure the bardic knowledge aspect of the class would represent his lorekeeper role.


I appreciate the thoughts thus far; keep them coming.

[Dannyalcatraz]

To make explicit what Theroc implied- Improved Natural Attack is virtually a must-have for these PCs.

Also, despite his bardish nature (as per Disney), you may wish to pick up on some wilderness skills for Baloo (either by just burning the skill points or by taking a level of druid)- he's not just an entertainer and lorekeeper, he's a keeper of the lore of law, and quite wise as well. (And the mix of Bard and Druid would be kind of Merlinesque, as well.)

Baloo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'd suggest he use a club, spear (esp. longspear) or quarterstaff, and for range, the javelin or sling. The weapons are simple, do decent damage, and are quite easy to replace in the natural environment- ease of replacement would be something Baloo would appreciate. Heck, if your DM is amenable, for RP, you could even play Baloo in such a way that he doesn't carry weapons- he just breaks off a branch to use (club or staff), maybe sharpens it by rubbing it on rocks (spear, javelin), or maybe picks up a rock that he flings with a flip of his wrist with the aid of a handy jungle leaf (sling). He does love to freeload off of nature, after all.

And clearly, his "instrument" should be his voice- don't forget levels in Perform: Dance either.

I'd look into the Reserve feats for this PC. You're going to be strapped for spells, so anything that boosts your spells' potency (by adding DCs as a secondary effect) or by giving you at-will abilities is a winner. There are a lot of Reserve Feats that improve critters you summon, for instance- could be tasty for a Bard.

Depending on your DM, you may also wish to look into things like Spellfire for Baloo- your party is poor in spellcasting firepower, after all- or VoP for Pooh.

[Dagredhel]

The Warshaper Prc from Complete Warrior would be a beneficial choice for class levels. The classes from the Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords would also likely work well, especially the Tiger Claw maneuvers and stances.

Ooops... Just noticed "core classes only".

[SnowHeart]

OMG! This has to be one of the best things I've seen in a while. I hope you'll keep us updated (as I also hope you get some great ideas) and let us know what winds up happening.

I'm not sure if Practiced Spellcaster will help for a bard, but you might want to keep that in mind -- if not for 1st level then definitely further down the road.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Originally Posted by Dagredhel

The Warshaper Prc from Complete Warrior would be a beneficial choice for class levels. The classes from the Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords would also likely work well, especially the Tiger Claw maneuvers and stances.

Ooops... Just noticed "core classes only".

Yeah, I would have suggested some kind of Psionic PC, but I had to *ahem* bear that limiting factor in mind.

[EroGaki]

Originally Posted by Dannyalcatraz

To make explicit what Theroc implied- Improved Natural Attack is virtually a must-have for these PCs.

Also, despite his bardish nature (as per Disney), you may wish to pick up on some wilderness skills for Baloo (either by just burning the skill points or by taking a level of druid)- he's not just an entertainer and lorekeeper, he's a keeper of the lore of law, and quite wise as well. (And the mix of Bard and Druid would be kind of Merlinesque, as well.)

Baloo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'd suggest he use a club, spear (esp. longspear) or quarterstaff, and for range, the javelin or sling. The weapons are simple, do decent damage, and are quite easy to replace in the natural environment- ease of replacement would be something Baloo would appreciate. Heck, if your DM is amenable, for RP, you could even play Baloo in such a way that he doesn't carry weapons- he just breaks off a branch to use (club or staff), maybe sharpens it by rubbing it on rocks (spear, javelin), or maybe picks up a rock that he flings with a flip of his wrist with the aid of a handy jungle leaf (sling). He does love to freeload off of nature, after all.

And clearly, his "instrument" should be his voice- don't forget levels in Perform: Dance either.

I'd look into the Reserve feats for this PC. You're going to be strapped for spells, so anything that boosts your spells' potency (by adding DCs as a secondary effect) or by giving you at-will abilities is a winner. There are a lot of Reserve Feats that improve critters you summon, for instance- could be tasty for a Bard.

Depending on your DM, you may also wish to look into things like Spellfire for Baloo- your party is poor in spellcasting firepower, after all- or VoP for Pooh.

Thanks for the link! I plan on blending the two versions of Baloo into one character. We shall see how effective this is.

Originally Posted by SnowHeart

OMG! This has to be one of the best things I've seen in a while. I hope you'll keep us updated (as I also hope you get some great ideas) and let us know what winds up happening.

I'm not sure if Practiced Spellcaster will help for a bard, but you might want to keep that in mind -- if not for 1st level then definitely further down the road.

The DM intends to write up a story hour at some point (assuming we survive, of course), so I'm sure you will hear more of this. We are pretty excited about this game.


So far it is looking like I will be the magic-user of our group. I intend to max out ranks in Use Magic Device and stock up on wands and scrolls containing essential spells (cures, buffs, etc) so that while we will not be hurling magic all over the place, we will have enough magic to plow our way through whatever obstacles present themselves.

[Dannyalcatraz]

You might also ask to be able to have unique but low-level magical items appropriate for your party...like a Bowl of Infinite Porridge.

Plus, are you limited to Core + Completes or WotC only sourcebooks for Feats & Spells?

If not, check out the MiC- as I recall, there was actually an enchantment that lets a weapon re-size itself.

Furthermore, in DCv1, there are a couple of nice Feats, and a couple I think your monk might enjoy. Unorthodox Flurry lets you add a single small weapon to a Monk's "Monk Weapon" list ; Pole Fighter does the same for a single polearm; Ring the Golden Bell lets a Monk use his IUS as a ranged weapon. (For more Monk goodness, follow the link in my sig.)

[EroGaki]

Originally Posted by Dannyalcatraz

You might also ask to be able to have unique but low-level magical items appropriate for your party...like a Bowl of Infinite Porridge.

Plus, are you limited to Core + Completes or WotC only sourcebooks for Feats & Spells?

If not, check out the MiC- as I recall, there was actually an enchantment that lets a weapon re-size itself.

Furthermore, in DCv1, there are a couple of nice Feats, and a couple I think your monk might enjoy. Unorthodox Flurry lets you add a single small weapon to a Monk's "Monk Weapon" list ; Pole Fighter does the same for a single polearm; Ring the Golden Bell lets a Monk use his IUS as a ranged weapon. (For more Monk goodness, follow the link in my sig.)

I did notice the sizing enchantment in the MIC; that solves half of the weapon/armor problem. Sadly, there doesn't seem to be a similar enchantment for armor... which means we will be sitting ducks. Except for the monk, of course.

[Theroc]

Originally Posted by Theroc

Ah, thanks for that. Helps me a lot, especially if that's a completely RAW ruling.

Anyways sorry for the partial hijack, seemed relevant.

I'd recommend any frontline fighters take the monster feats related to natural weapon 'size' and natural AC, unless you're focusing on actual weapons, then just worry over natural AC, obviously.

This portion of my initial (actually remotely helpful) post referred to Monster Feats :: d20srd.org
Which would allow your character's to increase your Natural Armor, making you a bit better at avoiding hits. It's probably not particularly optimal, but if armor is out of the question, you have little choice if you NEED more armor. Edit Note: Biggest issue here is it doesn't help against touch AC.

[EroGaki]

Originally Posted by Theroc

This portion of my initial (actually remotely helpful) post referred to Monster Feats :: d20srd.org
Which would allow your character's to increase your Natural Armor, making you a bit better at avoiding hits. It's probably not particularly optimal, but if armor is out of the question, you have little choice if you NEED more armor. Edit Note: Biggest issue here is it doesn't help against touch AC.

Noted. The problem is that feats aren't exactly plentiful, and I'm not sure how much of a benefit increasing my natural armor by 1 is. I'll probably make the sacrifice if nothing else comes up.

I will be taking Improved Natural Attack, however. And will advice the other bears to do the same.

[Wolf72]

Use some other game ideas ... World of Darkness 1.0 (and the newer version would too i guess) ...

have bound equipment that stays with you as you shape change, and in some cases allows you to use it too.

or create a simple enchantment (like posted above) that allows items/gear change appropriately with you ... armor becomes barding, bags become side/saddle bags.

[EroGaki]

Thanks for all the great replies thus far!

For my character, I'm trying to decide whether or not I should focus my feats on improving my bard abilities (inspire courage, etc) or not; frankly, I'm never going to be a very high level bard, considering we are technically 10th level characters and I only have 1 level.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Still down about the armor?

Try Rings & Cloaks of Protection, Bracers of Armor and, most nuanced, magic weapons with the Defending enchantment.

Get H's H. Haversacks all around, and have (mundane) armor built for your bear forms stored within each PC's sack.