D&D 4E Handling godhood in 4E

[Halivar]

We had a fairly successful "gods" campaign in 3.5E using the divine ranks rule back in they day. By player request, I will be running a 4E version of this campaign.

Basic premise:
The gods are dead or fled. The world is in ruins. The players are at max level, and must fill the void. They will grow in divine power as the campaign progresses, and they define the shape of the new pantheon and the rebuilt world.

Now, 3E had a fairly robust ruleset for gods and demigods, but I am tearing my hair out trying to port it. The differing design philosophies between 3E and 4E are making it more effort than just creating something whole cloth.

So, divine ranks. How do they work? What should they do? I'm trying to make something consistent with 4E's design, and would appreciate some input.

 

[Kynn]

Quick question, why are you using 4e for this when you could use what you already know worked for your group? What aspects of 4e are you seeking to actively use in this game?

 

[Halivar]

Quick question, why are you using 4e for this when you could use what you already know worked for your group? What aspects of 4e are you seeking to actively use in this game?

Good question. Parts of the group are new (learned to play in 4E). The ones that played in the 3.5 gods campaign are now solid 4E players who don't want to go back to 3.5.

So, what I'm looking for is a svelte, non-fiddly system that approximates the powers granted by the old divine system while integrating well with 4E's AEDU system.

For instance, altering local terrain could be an elective encounter power.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there Halivar!

We had a fairly successful "gods" campaign in 3.5E using the divine ranks rule back in they day. By player request, I will be running a 4E version of this campaign.

Basic premise:
The gods are dead or fled. The world is in ruins. The players are at max level, and must fill the void. They will grow in divine power as the campaign progresses, and they define the shape of the new pantheon and the rebuilt world.

Cool.

Now, 3E had a fairly robust ruleset for gods and demigods,

If robust = terrible, then I agree.

I suggest checking out the Immortals Handbook: Ascension pdf for how divinity should have been handled in 3E...and yes that is blowing my own trumpet.

but I am tearing my hair out trying to port it. The differing design philosophies between 3E and 4E are making it more effort than just creating something whole cloth.

I have contemplated creating an Immortal Tier (31-40) for 4th Edition but the way the PC classes in 4E are designed its simply too much work*. Add in the fact that there are now some 30 or so classes and it'll be a complete 'mare' to design.

*I'm actively looking at ways to shrink the 4E PC classes to a manageable 2-page format.

Revised 4E Fighter Eternity Publishing
Revised 4E Wizard Class Eternity Publishing

So, divine ranks. How do they work? What should they do? I'm trying to make something consistent with 4E's design, and would appreciate some input.

Well, my plan for the 4E Immortal Tier was to:

1. Continue the classes up to Level 40 (Everyone I talked to said if you are going to do it, extend the classes).
2. Have Portfolio Paths replace Paragon Paths.
3. Level Advancement would no longer be from EXP, but instead from Quintessence (Preferably from Worship) - as per the Ascension 3E pdf.
4. Divine Abilities replace feats (each divine ability is worth 2 feats, so instead of gaining a feat you would trade one of your existing feats for a divine ability). This way you keep the number of feats/abilities down to manageable levels.

So rather than add divine ranks onto levels, the new tier would, in effect, be for divine characters only. Each level-up being a level in 'immortal' and thus divine rank templates were irrelevant.

The problems I faced were:

- The current epic tier is so lacklustre that I doubted few would want to play through it to get to an immortal tier.
- The way the classes are built in 4E sucks. Its so space intensive as to require too much work.
- Each portfolio path needed to be built for every class type (controller, defender, leader, striker).
- There are very few Level 30+ monsters (and most are BBEGs anyway) that you'd need to design about 100 new monsters just to make the tier diverse and interesting enough.
- At the epic tier (and thus above as well), the PCs are effectively twice as powerful as in the heroic tier when compared to same level monsters. So an elite monster in the epic tier is about as effective as a standard monster in the heroic tier. This needs taking into account when building encounters.

So proper 4E Immortals would be so tricky that I have probably resigned myself to working on some epic tier pdfs. The 4E system itself is fantastic, but extending the PC classes (in their current format) into another tier would require hundreds of pages of material.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I would think that simply starting at epic tier would work - after all, it sounds like you want the PCs to be pretty crappy diety wise and then grow into the job, and starting at level 21 captures that feel pretty well.

 

[Halivar]

I suggest checking out the Immortals Handbook: Ascension pdf for how divinity should have been handled in 3E...and yes that is blowing my own trumpet.

Hi UK! It's been a long time! I followed the improved monster CR project for Immortals Handbook very closely, and posted a PHP monster calc web-app for it long ago. Alas, I cannot find it anymore.

Very good advice there, though!

 

[D'karr]

Do you plan on the players starting at Epic level for this game?

I would recommend that you look at themes as a way of putting in "divine powers"

It's a way of broadening the characters without really increasing the power level. You will need to work it out but mechanically that is probably best option.

 

[On Puget Sound]

I would tend to move away from classes - perhaps just make a set of powers for each power source (martial gods, divine gods, psionic gods, etc) and let the PC's former class, race and other details of their mortal career mostly be expressed in fluff that alters the description of those powers.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I like Dr. Ruminahui's suggestion. KISS.

If post-30 advancement is a must, I like On Puget Sound's suggestion. Make post-30 all about portfolio/power source in the interest of KISS. I wouldn't even write out a list of options -- I'd just ask each player what they want to be god of and what kind of god-powers they want, and wing it. "You're the god of storms, who can summon storm bolts out of the clear blue sky? Okay your first god-encounter-power is creating a close burst 20 attack that targets all enemies for 3d10 + stat lightning/thunder damage. And you can summon storms in a ten mile radius at-will, given ten minutes' time."

- At the epic tier (and thus above as well), the PCs are effectively twice as powerful as in the heroic tier when compared to same level monsters. So an elite monster in the epic tier is about as effective as a standard monster in the heroic tier. This needs taking into account when building encounters.

Wow, so in your games each caste (standard, elite, etc) is worth 20 levels? Just curious, as that's very different from my caste scale.

 

[Saagael]

Wow, so in your games each caste (standard, elite, etc) is worth 20 levels? Just curious, as that's very different from my caste scale.

I think what me means is that elites at epic tier are like standards at heroic tier: You could throw 6 elites at an epic party and they could handle it. Not that upgrading a standard monster to an elite monster increases its level by 20. That's what I'm reading, at least. I could be way off with this.